From roxanne@u.arizona.edu Tue Aug 2 18:15:51 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:15:51 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253265BAD for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:15:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E131548 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:15:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 03204-01-63 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:15:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (deagol.email.Arizona.EDU [128.196.133.142]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDAC43462 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:15:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (faramir.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.218]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDB5AD4EB5 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:15:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from rmountford3866 (dhcp-80c43bf5.ltc.arizona.edu [128.196.59.245]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D03F5AE7E9C for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:15:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <004e01c597b8$1335b270$f53bc480@rmountford3866> From: "Roxanne Mountford" To: Subject: [encore] Anyone involved in Sakai? Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:15:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1444 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: roxanne@u.arizona.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: roxanne@u.arizona.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Dear all, I'm serving as faculty adviser to the University of Arizona's Learning Technology Center, and in that capacity have been consulting with them about our MOO--OldPuebloMOO. UA has invested in the Sakai Project (http://www.sakaiproject.org/), and programmers here are contributing to the development of some of the open source tools. Has anyone in the enCore group worked with Sakai? Does enCore have a relationship with Sakai of any kind? Thanks, Roxanne Roxanne Mountford, PhD Associate Professor Department of English University of Arizona www.u.arizona.edu/~roxanne From cynthia.haynes@gmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:26:04 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380055BAD for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2489212EB for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 21669-01-53 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:25:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4D9345E for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:25:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so1114634wra for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type; b=ss0MS/3Jwl27bh9HNqOG+Ak+gdLV3WFyaHgkWVzpga42MSkLAb2WNiquo8CDmUDjKJyd/sN5OE/4PWUEDhiMm5UqExN52cGRYMasT97Uq6Vq2yAHMwKrlGh/9Ul3+yYY2DFSRvnDGjX7WKdmB+7fRREoxqqOutJYpm0C01OUyT0= Received: by 10.54.13.77 with SMTP id 77mr5079390wrm; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.0.1.2? ([66.169.106.136]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d8sm8450393wra.2005.08.08.14.25.45; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:25:46 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:25:31 -0500 Subject: [encore] Reminder of enCore Symposium and annual Consortium online meeting From: Cynthia Haynes To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050728055417.01cf4dc8@accdvm.accd.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="B_3206363133_903523" X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1445 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: cynthia.haynes@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cynthia.haynes@gmail.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3206363133_903523 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3206363133_902137" --B_3206363133_902137 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Folks, This is just a reminder about this weekend=B9s enCore Symposium held at UT-Dallas on Fri and Sat, Aug 12th and 13th. The info for the symposium can be found here: http://www.encore-consortium.org/symposium2005.htm We especially invite those of you unable to attend the F2F meetings to attend the online meeting on Saturday morning from 8:30-10:00am CDT to be held in the enCore beta5 MOO set up by Daniel Jung who will showcase the ne= w enCore features due out with the version 5 soon. In addition to Daniel=B9s demo of beta5, the EnCore Consortium members in attendance online will be able to help us vote to incorporate and hear a report from the Consortium Steering Committee during this meeting as well. If you wish to attend this online meeting, we will need to set up a player account for you on this beta5 MOO, so please let me know by Thursday, Aug 11, if you want to attend= , and we will provide you with login instructions and a password email will b= e forthcoming.=20 Hope to see you there! Best, Cynthia=20 Cynthia Haynes, Associate Professor ______________________ cynthia@itu.dk IT University of Copenhagen Department of Digital Aesthetics and Communication Rued Langgaards Vej 7 (o)+45-72-18-50-34 (f)+45-72-18-50-01 DK-2300 Copenhagen S http://www.itu.dk/people/cynthia --B_3206363133_902137 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reminder of enCore Symposium and annual Consortium online meeting</T= ITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Palatino"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Folks,<BR>     This is just a reminder about this weekend’s = enCore Symposium held at UT-Dallas on Fri and Sat, Aug 12th and 13th. The in= fo for the symposium can be found here:<BR> <BR> <a href=3D"http://www.encore-consortium.org/symposium2005.htm">http://www.enc= ore-consortium.org/symposium2005.htm</a><BR> <BR> We especially invite those of you unable to attend the F2F meetings to atte= nd the online meeting on Saturday morning from 8:30-10:00am CDT to be held i= n the enCore beta5 MOO set up by Daniel Jung who will showcase the new enCor= e features due out with the version 5 soon. In addition to Daniel’s de= mo of beta5, the EnCore Consortium members in attendance online will be able= to help us vote to incorporate and hear a report from the Consortium Steeri= ng Committee during this meeting as well. If you wish to attend this online = meeting, we will need to set up a player account for you on this beta5 MOO, = so please let me know by Thursday, Aug 11, if you want to attend, and we wil= l provide you with login instructions and a password email will be forthcomi= ng. <BR> <BR> Hope to see you there!<BR> <BR> Best,<BR> <BR> Cynthia <BR> <BR> <I><IMG src=3D"cid:3206363131_923623" ></I>Cynthia Haynes, Associate Professo= r ______________________ cynthia@itu.dk<BR> IT University of Copenhagen      Department of Dig= ital Aesthetics and Communication<BR> Rued Langgaards Vej 7          = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;           (o)+4= 5-72-18-50-34 (f)+45-72-18-50-01        &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;  <BR> DK-2300 Copenhagen S          =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;           <a hre= f=3D"http://www.itu.dk/people/cynthia">http://www.itu.dk/people/cynthia</a><BR= > <BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica= , Arial"><BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Palatino"><BR> </FONT></SPAN> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3206363133_902137-- --B_3206363133_903523 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image.gif" Content-ID: <3206363131_923623> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhLQAeAPcAAOXl5fb19f4EFI6Ojv1OEbq6uqampv+ZBv22Sv+eEf6kF3V1df3rzP6q KPxXYf3Eav3Sjf3ku/736v2gqv3dqv3S1f3k5v52Df6NDf4uJf15gf2+w/3t8NXV1WZmZv// /wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAtAB4AAAj/AD8IHEiwoEGC FB4cXMiw4cIICg4odEix4kCIBxJItMiRIcYEIDd2HCnwI8iQE0laNHkyJASVFT9mPECzpkiY DyMqaIAAwYOfPxE0UPCSJIcKBz/2BAqBAgUGEj5IYECyQoYMDjho5WCBwdCdGg9guECWLIYG D56O1CCgbYa2ArJKmCuhwQUCBN5ehSsAbwMIUStOgOtAgwYHaZs2bYBhZsixeeESaEChYWAO GjJMEOjVJs0ECk6GBq2gNIa3bS8ULSgBAtrAAzu3nE1btIILcC9QLUihZuWLDTLWHj77dlsC EQz2pvlbIITPxKODVPC2AWyCDxI8uP7huXDptWlerWiw+yDsDRosOI/oWXpNBQgqq3e4we2E +xp86n/A3nNG+GlFZYEDmznkAF9uaQCbBEs9AMGDTkFFFwRsacABRYMJoNkGG0ywAQVLIbAT WhBS8OADCNzVVoEVdTjfQBI8QBMGNNJYFl4E8KUBUjhhJ9ZdernlFgEO8NhjQTKC1FiNNGpk 3ZELJRnalKUd8CSUUX53kpXcYYmkllaW52WWIV05ZkMyhnlmRSiKWVFAADs= --B_3206363133_903523-- From jung@uib.no Mon Aug 15 10:50:41 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: <jung@uib.no> X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4365BF3 for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7B0F7E for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24621-01-89 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:50:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328CF343E for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:50:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E4hEQ-0006ht-Kh; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:50:35 +0200 Received: from 117.84-48-30.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [84.48.30.117] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E4hEQ-0004SE-CD; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:50:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4300B843.5020104@uib.no> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:44:03 +0200 From: Daniel Jung <jung@uib.no> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore <encore@utdallas.edu>, development@encore-consortium.org Subject: [encore] Task available: moo mail attachment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: d87be4f601d8e73e570c6a3726b9818c http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1446 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help> List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe> List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-list: encore Hi all Here's Yet Another Task I Don't Have Time For. It's really low priority for me right now, but it would be a nifty thing to have. So I'm asking if anyone else wants to go for this. Or maybe someone already has? Here it goes: ************************************** Task: Enhance the enCore email protocol and sendmail routine to optionally include [text/html] attachments. Background: Documents ($note), including recorder logs, and personal logs like the Xpress_log, are tagged with HMTL code. With the introduction of the HMTL Chat log in v5, introducing colors, images and text formatting, there is (and will be) even more use of HTML tags. enCore Xpress is able to send messages, notes and logs via email with a simple mail transfer protocol. Basically, it sends appends lines in a property and sends them raw. This means that HMTL tags are not interpreted as instructions by the receiving client, but as plain text. So unless someone sends very simple (scarcely or un-tagged) documents, the mail received is near unreadable. Task Description: Email to be sent should be (optionally and/or by detection) generated on the fly as complete html files and be attached to the email body. The Xpress MOO Mailer :sendmail should allow a broader set of headers, including content-type, encoding-value, mime-version, boundary-delimiter, you name it. The whole procedure must be pure MOO code, and not rely on PERL or any external resource (unless it includes a kind of virus-check). It could include an (in-moo) washing routine to prevent sending of malicious code. ************************************** You may pass this on to interested programmers. Thanks! - Daniel From jung@uib.no Mon Aug 15 15:33:34 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: <jung@uib.no> X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AAD5CA4 for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890EA10FA for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 18774-01-20 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBBA3442 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E4ldr-0007li-AD; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:33:08 +0200 Received: from 117.84-48-30.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [84.48.30.117] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E4ldr-0005Mu-1W; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:33:07 +0200 Message-ID: <4300FA7C.1010702@uib.no> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:26:36 +0200 From: Daniel Jung <jung@uib.no> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore <encore@utdallas.edu>, development@encore-consortium.org Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sindre_S=F8rensen?= <sindre.sorensen@uib.no> Subject: [encore] Help needed: v5 on MAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: df4aa99681111e79a7f7639c63c9ea18 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1447 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help> List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe> List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-list: encore Hi all, I need help to make v5 easy-to-use on MAC. I have a MAC at work, and have been testing and trying, but unfortunately, I am no MAC specialist. I hope some of you are, and are willing to take a look. ----------------------- 1. javascript .select() ----------------------- The HTML Chat uses a standard textarea as input field. On loading, this textarea should be selected. The relevant code is <body onload="self.focus(); document.getElementById('command').select();"> <textarea name="command" id="command" onKeyPress="(!event.shiftKey && (event.keyCode == 13)) ? this.form.submit() : 0;"></textarea> The selecting doesn't seem to work in Safari - the textarea is not selected nor focussed on onload. The onKeyPress is working fine though. The .select() is working in other browsers. I can't imagine this being a DOM/.getElementById thing, since Safari should be W3C DOM-2 DHTML, but then again, what do I know. There is, forinstance, no other .focus() in the body tags of the other frames in the frameset which could be taking away focus. Why is that so, and what can be done about it? --------------- 2. Java for MAC --------------- A. In order to make the new java applet work for Gecko (Mozilla, Netscpa, Firefox), it is neccessary to install a plugin from http://javaplugin.sourceforge.net/ Once this is done, hte applet seems to work smoothly. But asking users to install that could be both cumbersome and/or impossible due to admin rights on a borrowed machine, for instance. From what I understand, the plugin is a way of making Java 1.4 features available for non-Safari MAC browsers. What puzzles me, then, is that we don't use 1.4 features in v5 (to the best of my knowledge). I suspect the tag syntax to play a role here, but I am no expert. The relevant code is <applet archive="v5beta17.jar" code="v5.V5.class" codebase="http://lingo.uib.no/dev_fransk/encore/mootcan/" width="16" height="90" > <param name="HostName" value="lingo.uib.no" /> [... more params ...] Sorry, you need a browser that supports Java to use this system. </applet> I kept it an <applet> and didn't change it to <object> because of poorer implemetation for the <object>. Does anyone know why these applet tags and/or the applet itself is not recognized/loaded without the plugin, and what can be done about it (except using the plugin, of course)? A message about this posted on bugzilla didn't generate any solutions. B. Opera for MAC doesn't like the applet (and/or tags) either. Nor does it seem to like the plugin either. How do we solve this? C. Can someone test the platform for Camino? D. And if someone manages to make it run in iCab and Omniweb; be my guest. We have tested it and had to conclude it wasn't worth supporting, due to these browsers' development stage. Same goes for IE on MAC. But if someone comes up with hacks, that would be welcome. Thanks - Daniel From jung@uib.no Tue Aug 16 12:08:45 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08:45 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: <jung@uib.no> X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06135BAD for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733D61298 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 20095-01-35 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242B0342C for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E54vV-0004Xv-Fb; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:08:38 +0200 Received: from 117.84-48-30.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [84.48.30.117] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E54vV-0004Ab-7P; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:08:37 +0200 Message-ID: <43021C0F.20602@uib.no> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:02:07 +0200 From: Daniel Jung <jung@uib.no> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore <encore@utdallas.edu>, development@encore-consortium.org Subject: [encore] Task available: translations into different languages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: 427fed1c5c39f3809a486e1c247c771e http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1448 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help> List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe> List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-list: encore Hi all, more tasks. **************************************** Task: ===== Translate language package files for v5 Background: =========== Many of you either run by yourself, or have collegues or remote friends that run, localized MOOs or attempts of localized MOOs, or have wished to do so. Many of you are interested in translating, and have the language skills, but maybe not the programming skills to go into the code and hack the dream into reality. Good news, folks. Translating has become very easy (well, from a programming point of view), since we now have a kind of "language rendering motor" which radically changes the way visible language is stored and produced. All interface-language is outside the verbs, thus cleared of actual "code", and virtually non-breakable. In any emergency, a default English language package kicks in. E.g., the language file for the menu bar has a section like this: mail => Mail/Forum mail_access => M mail_alt => Write or read internal messages, participate in a discussion forum These strings are fetched by the actual processing verb, which makes a button/link with the text "Mail/Forum" where the M is underlined and shortcut-accessible, and displays a tool tip with the text in the last line. No need to go into verbs and mess them up any more. Task description: ================= All the right hand strings in these language package files need to be translated. The complete files will be available soon. Parts are already packed and translatable. Takers: ======= The takers should be native or near-native speakers of the target language. They need to be familiar with both MOO concepts and common browser interface lingo in the target language ("bookmark", "command history"). The takers may work alone or as a group. The consortium should take care of "quality control" in some way. The task will be considered as a most welcome contribution to the enCore Open Source project. The takers' names will appear in the Credit List. The translations will be clearly marked as the takers' work and be copyrighted for them like the rest of v5, under the GNU Public License. Languages: ========== We have started a Classic Latin language package, which eventually might be regular part of the language choices in v5. That's a lot of fun. We would like to include as many other languages as we can. So we are looking for * Portuguese * Dutch * Croatian * Arabic * Yiddish * Klingon you name it. Volunteers for any of those, and other, languages please send a mail to the consortium. **************************************** Please pass this on. Thanks a lot. - Daniel From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Tue Aug 16 23:57:16 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:57:16 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: <kevijeps@telusplanet.net> X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB715BAD for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:57:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB3AF68 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:57:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 05124-01-30 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:57:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E93344E for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:57:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050817045659.VOMW20248.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:56:59 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" <kevijeps@telusplanet.net> To: <Development@encore-consortium.org>, <encore@utdallas.edu> Cc: "'Daniel Jung'" <jung@uib.no> Subject: [encore] Re: Frames in V5 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:56:49 -0600 Message-ID: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C5A2B5.C9F7AEC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1449 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help> List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe> List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu> X-list: encore This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C5A2B5.C9F7AEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Daniel and All. =20 I read your document at: HYPERLINK "http://lingo.uib.no/v5/frames.html"http://lingo.uib.no/v5/frames.html = and you make some excellant points WRT the difficulties of meshing the WEB = side with the TEXT/MOO side. =20 Your critique of V4 is very similar in many respects to what I was = trying to say in my posts on the metaphors. =20 I think your comment about the difficulty users have with the "look" = button is very apropos of the issue. =20 =20 What does the look button really do?=20 =20 It is a kind of "back" button from the WEB and DESKTOP metaphors and a "virtual exit" from the MOO metaphor. None of which is what the user = would intuit from the actions that they "see". =20 The following quote hits it bang on the head: =20 Daniel said:" This (the documents covering web_frame) is an important = part of the reason many of my users never got the idea that there were = real-life metaphor rooms, and that they in fact were part of it. What many of them = do, is log in, find the recorder log of the last (unattended) class, click = on it, read it and/or print it and log off again. They are using the MOO = for browsing resources, and even ask me to please make it more windows-like, with a folder and document hierarchy, since the way it is now is so = weird, unintuitive and cumbersome. My guess is: If the current room always were = a non-vanishing part of the GUI, those users (or: many modern users) would more easily accept rooms as structuring unit, and not search for folder = and document hierarchy. "=20 =20 Exactly, the "room metaphor" is actually suppressed by the interface as = we have it now. =20 IMHO, V5 doesn't help that and even makes it worse with the people = viewer block. =20 I understand your rationale for keeping it separate but keeping that = list "out of the room" is not conducive to maintaining the room metaphor structure. =20 Daniel said:" The role of the room as a structuring unit is down-played considerably when the space it is displayed in is also used for other, non-room-things. So let's stick to the word web_frame, and let's not = call it room_frame or "the room", because conceptually, it isn't. " =20 Bingo. =20 Therein lies the whole problem IMHO, we have a great collection of tools here that just don't mesh in a way that brings the user along with an "unrealized and unforced" acceptance of the spatial metaphors of MOO. = We use the words for rooms, exits etc, but they don't really behave as we = would expect such things to behave. =20 For example, on the WEB frame we see a list of the exits available for a user to take. They all look alike and they all point the same = direction, to the right. There is no spatial information there simply a link for the = user to click, like any standard web page. The exits are also labelled AS = THEIR DESTINATIONS not as directions that LEAD to a destination. To make = matters worse, in V5 there is no text based way to see or move in any = "direction" at all. The user is forced to click one of these links. That is not a = spatial "move", a walk, a jaunt, a stroll or anything other than a hypertext = like jump. V5 essentially forces users to TELEPORT every time they change = rooms. =20 No wonder the spatial metaphor is broken. We have no way to give the = user any information from which to build an internal representation of the "space". =20 This is a common problem many website designers struggle with. How do = they assist the user in generating a map of the site to aid in their = navigation. The Hypertext WEB metaphor is really bad for that and it is a rare = website that succeeds in making it clear how the pages are related. =20 MOO never had that problem in text mode, as long as the builders didn't violate the expected rules of three space. If I go West I can go back by going East, if I climb UP a tree I can reach the ground again by going = DOWN. This paper by Jolanda G. Tromp "Results of two surveys about Spatial Perception and Navigation in a Text-Based Spatial Interface" 1993, has = an excellent discussion on how people navigate textual/spatial systems. = There is a copy of the paper here: HYPERLINK "http://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/documentation/VE/WWW5/ori/jola.ps"http://tecfa= .un ige.ch/pub/documentation/VE/WWW5/ori/jola.ps =20 =20 We are essentially trying to invent a new system, one which has no real = life analogue like the spatial metaphors of text. That process is certainly fraught with difficulty and I'm afraid we still have a long way to go.=20 =20 I do not, in any way, wish to denigrate the hard work of Daniel, Jan and Cynthia et al, in having created and maintained the enCore system. =20 =20 The tools are there.=20 =20 We may have to shift the emphasis and give the text tools back to the = user to help them help themselves. =20 Ciao KJ=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. =20 An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. Email: kevijeps@telusplanet.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: = 15/08/2005 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C5A2B5.C9F7AEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1250"> <TITLE>Message
Hi = Daniel and=20 All.
 
I read = your document=20 at: http://lingo.uib.no/v5/frames= .html and=20 you make some excellant points WRT the difficulties of meshing the = WEB side=20 with the TEXT/MOO side.
 
Your = critique of V4=20 is very similar in many respects to what I was trying to say = in my=20 posts on the metaphors.
 
I = think your comment=20 about the difficulty users have with the "look" button is very apropos = of the=20 issue. 
 
What = does the look=20 button really do?
 
It is = a kind of=20 "back" button from the WEB and DESKTOP metaphors and a "virtual = exit" from=20 the MOO metaphor.  None of which is what the user would intuit from = the=20 actions that they "see".
 
The = following quote=20 hits it bang on the head:
 
Daniel = said:" This = (the=20 documents covering web_frame) is an important part of the reason many of = my=20 users never got the idea that there were real-life metaphor rooms, and = that they=20 in fact were part of it. What many of them do, is log in, find the = recorder log=20 of the last (unattended) class, click on it, read it and/or print it and = log off=20 again. They are using the MOO for browsing resources, and even ask me to = please=20 make it more windows-like, with a folder and document hierarchy, since = the way=20 it is now is so weird, unintuitive and cumbersome. My guess is: If the = current=20 room always were a non-vanishing part of the GUI, those users (or: many = modern=20 users) would more easily accept rooms as structuring unit, and not = search for=20 folder and document hierarchy. " 
 
Exactly, the "room=20 metaphor" is actually suppressed by the interface as we have it=20 now.
 
IMHO, = V5 doesn't=20 help that and even makes it worse with the people viewer=20 block.
 
I = understand your=20 rationale for keeping it separate but keeping that list "out of the = room" is not=20 conducive to maintaining the room metaphor = structure.
 
Daniel = said:" The = role of the=20 room as a structuring unit is down-played considerably when the space it = is=20 displayed in is also used for other, non-room-things. So let's stick to = the word=20 web_frame, and let's not call it room_frame or "the room", because = conceptually,=20 it isn't. "
 
Bingo.
 
Therein lies the=20 whole problem IMHO, we have a great collection of tools here that just = don't=20 mesh in a way that brings the user along with an "unrealized and=20 unforced" acceptance of the spatial metaphors of MOO.  We use = the=20 words for rooms, exits etc, but they don't really behave as we would = expect such=20 things to behave.
 
For = example, on the=20 WEB frame we see a list of the exits available for a user to take.  = They=20 all look alike and they all point the same direction, to the = right.  There=20 is no spatial information there simply a link for the user to = click, like=20 any standard web page.  The exits are also labelled AS THEIR = DESTINATIONS=20 not as directions that LEAD to a destination. To make matters = worse, in=20 V5 there is no text based way to see or move in any "direction" at=20 all.  The user is forced to click one of these links.  That is = not a=20 spatial "move", a walk, a jaunt, a stroll or anything other than a = hypertext=20 like jump.  V5 essentially forces users to TELEPORT every time = they=20 change rooms. 
 
No = wonder the=20 spatial metaphor is broken. We have no way to give the user any = information from=20 which to build an internal representation of the = "space".
 
This = is a common=20 problem many website designers struggle with.  How do they assist = the user=20 in generating a map of the site to aid in their navigation.  The = Hypertext=20 WEB metaphor is really bad for that and it is a rare website that = succeeds in=20 making it clear how the pages are related.
 
MOO = never had that=20 problem in text mode, as long as the builders didn't violate the = expected rules=20 of three space. If I go West I can go back by going East, if I = climb=20 UP a tree I can reach the ground again by going DOWN.  This paper = by=20 Jolanda G. Tromp  "Results of two surveys about Spatial Perception = and=20 Navigation in a Text-Based Spatial Interface"  1993, has an = excellent=20 discussion on how people navigate textual/spatial systems. There is = a copy=20 of the paper here: http= ://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/documentation/VE/WWW5/ori/jola.ps =20
 
We are = essentially=20 trying to invent a new system, one which has no real life analogue = like the=20 spatial metaphors of text.  That process is certainly fraught = with=20 difficulty and I'm afraid we still have a long way to=20 go. 
 
I do = not, in any=20 way, wish to denigrate the hard work of Daniel, Jan and Cynthia et al, = in having=20 created and maintained the enCore = system.  
 
The = tools are there.=20
 
We may have to=20 shift the emphasis and give the text tools back to the user to help them = help=20 themselves.
 
Ciao
KJ 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Kevin Jepson=20 R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;        
An't=20 nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.

Email:=20 kevijeps@telusplanet.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 =20
 

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: = 15/08/2005

------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C5A2B5.C9F7AEC0-- From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Aug 17 06:41:33 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:33 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D92E5BAD for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C441FFE6 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 18852-01-27 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EF093392 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.19] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:40:26 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:41:20 -0500 To: "Kevin Jepson" , , From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: [Development] RE: Frames in V5 In-Reply-To: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> References: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_160808984==.ALT" X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1450 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore --=====================_160808984==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is an excellent discussion. I think both Kevin and Daniel are in agreement, as am I, on the effects of frames. I should share a little bit about what Jan talked about last Saturday at the enCore Symposium because it pertains to this discussion. The theme of his talk was about returning enCore to its gaming roots--not completely, but return to the moo metaphors we have discussed so much recently. As a demonstration, he showed us the new massively multiplayer game called World of Warcraft. It is a 3-D game in many ways similar to the old text-moo/mud games. Here are some of the features of this game he felt were important: --character/player as the main point of view --a sense of place/environment/situatedness in place (including an awareness of others in that space) --individuality (expression, action, ability to manipulate environment and interact with other characters--there is that character-centered point of view) --social systems inside the "world" (guilds or player classes--also an awareness of a players "class" when viewed) --he really stressed the importance of emoting in particular (the power of emoting has not diminished in enCore v4/5). He felt it was a strength that could be accented more. --a feeling of immersion in the world I think this is a pretty good list of the characteristics of the "moo metaphor" (if we want to call it that?). Please add in others as you think about them. Jan had a couple of reactions to v4 and v5: --frames split the world and affect the feeling of "immersion." In a text-moo, there was just one world--the text--so one was immersed in it alone. I'm not sure how to do away with frames and the split in the world as it is right now. There was a lot of discussion about redesigning the interface with the goal of dealing with this issue, but I think that goal is probably one best left for v6. In The World of Warcraft the chat text overlays the graphics of the space so the words are IN the space. That is interesting. I wonder if there is a way to overlay something like a dynamic window that opens over/in the space and expands or contracts as the user wishes. I'm thinking here of something like "layers" that I can use when I create webpages in Dreamweaver. I can insert a "layer" into the webpage and it shows without any sense that it is a separate object. --Jan noted the same thing you did Kevin about the WHO browser. It was problematic to move the characters "out" of the room if the "room" is perceived to exist within the right panel. --Jan also noticed a small thing with the dialogue in the new HTML chat. Characters talk with colons now rather than "says"--Lennie: vs. Lennie says, " It is a small thing and perhaps not worth worrying about, but it was an example of individual expression. We also picked up that the return dynamic from the previous way the chat worked changed. When you talked before it would say, "You said, 'aldfafdfaldf.' There was a difference between what you saw from your perspective and what the others in the room saw. I know this causes some confusion, but it did contribute to the "character-centered" point of view. As I have mentioned to Daniel, I believe there is a balance. I don't propose that we should turn enCore into the 3-D World of Warcraft; neither do I propose we turn into WebCT or Moodle. But WoW does help us clarify some of the moo metaphor characteristics that we can try in our own way to replicate, and we already have many course platform features that we should also continue to develop. Lennie At 11:56 PM 8/16/2005, Kevin Jepson wrote: >Hi Daniel and All. > >I read your document at: >http://lingo.uib.no/v5/frames.html and >you make some excellant points WRT the difficulties of meshing the WEB >side with the TEXT/MOO side. > >Your critique of V4 is very similar in many respects to what I was trying >to say in my posts on the metaphors. > >I think your comment about the difficulty users have with the "look" >button is very apropos of the issue. > >What does the look button really do? > >It is a kind of "back" button from the WEB and DESKTOP metaphors and a >"virtual exit" from the MOO metaphor. None of which is what the user >would intuit from the actions that they "see". > >The following quote hits it bang on the head: > >Daniel said:" This (the documents covering web_frame) is an important part >of the reason many of my users never got the idea that there were >real-life metaphor rooms, and that they in fact were part of it. What many >of them do, is log in, find the recorder log of the last (unattended) >class, click on it, read it and/or print it and log off again. They are >using the MOO for browsing resources, and even ask me to please make it >more windows-like, with a folder and document hierarchy, since the way it >is now is so weird, unintuitive and cumbersome. My guess is: If the >current room always were a non-vanishing part of the GUI, those users (or: >many modern users) would more easily accept rooms as structuring unit, and >not search for folder and document hierarchy. " > >Exactly, the "room metaphor" is actually suppressed by the interface as we >have it now. > >IMHO, V5 doesn't help that and even makes it worse with the people viewer >block. > >I understand your rationale for keeping it separate but keeping that list >"out of the room" is not conducive to maintaining the room metaphor structure. > >Daniel said:" The role of the room as a structuring unit is down-played >considerably when the space it is displayed in is also used for other, >non-room-things. So let's stick to the word web_frame, and let's not call >it room_frame or "the room", because conceptually, it isn't. " > >Bingo. > >Therein lies the whole problem IMHO, we have a great collection of tools >here that just don't mesh in a way that brings the user along with an >"unrealized and unforced" acceptance of the spatial metaphors of MOO. We >use the words for rooms, exits etc, but they don't really behave as we >would expect such things to behave. > >For example, on the WEB frame we see a list of the exits available for a >user to take. They all look alike and they all point the same direction, >to the right. There is no spatial information there simply a link for the >user to click, like any standard web page. The exits are also labelled AS >THEIR DESTINATIONS not as directions that LEAD to a destination. To make >matters worse, in V5 there is no text based way to see or move in any >"direction" at all. The user is forced to click one of these links. That >is not a spatial "move", a walk, a jaunt, a stroll or anything other than >a hypertext like jump. V5 essentially forces users to TELEPORT every time >they change rooms. > >No wonder the spatial metaphor is broken. We have no way to give the user >any information from which to build an internal representation of the "space". > >This is a common problem many website designers struggle with. How do >they assist the user in generating a map of the site to aid in their >navigation. The Hypertext WEB metaphor is really bad for that and it is a >rare website that succeeds in making it clear how the pages are related. > >MOO never had that problem in text mode, as long as the builders didn't >violate the expected rules of three space. If I go West I can go back by >going East, if I climb UP a tree I can reach the ground again by going >DOWN. This paper by Jolanda G. Tromp "Results of two surveys about >Spatial Perception and Navigation in a Text-Based Spatial >Interface" 1993, has an excellent discussion on how people navigate >textual/spatial systems. There is a copy of the paper here: >http://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/documentation/VE/WWW5/ori/jola.ps > > >We are essentially trying to invent a new system, one which has no real >life analogue like the spatial metaphors of text. That process is >certainly fraught with difficulty and I'm afraid we still have a long way >to go. > >I do not, in any way, wish to denigrate the hard work of Daniel, Jan and >Cynthia et al, in having created and maintained the enCore system. > >The tools are there. > >We may have to shift the emphasis and give the text tools back to the user >to help them help themselves. > >Ciao >KJ >======================================================= >Kevin Jepson R.E.T. >President >4K Consulting Inc. >An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. > >Email: kevijeps@telusplanet.net >======================================================= > > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 15/08/2005 >_______________________________________________ >Development mailing list >Development@encore-consortium.org >http://encore-consortium.org/mailman/listinfo/development_encore-consortium.org --=====================_160808984==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is an excellent discussion.  I think both Kevin and Daniel are in agreement, as am I, on the effects of frames. 

I should share a little bit about what Jan talked about last Saturday at the enCore Symposium because it pertains to this discussion.  The theme of his talk was about returning enCore to its gaming roots--not completely, but return to the moo metaphors we have discussed so much recently.   As a demonstration, he showed us the new massively multiplayer game called World of Warcraft.  It is a 3-D game in many ways similar to the old text-moo/mud games. 

Here are some of the features of this game he felt were important:
--character/player as the main point of view
--a sense of place/environment/situatedness in place (including an awareness of others in that space)
--individuality (expression, action, ability to manipulate environment and interact with other characters--there is that character-centered point of view)
--social systems inside the "world" (guilds or player classes--also an awareness of a players "class" when viewed)
--he really stressed the importance of emoting in particular (the power of emoting has not diminished in enCore v4/5). He felt it was a strength that could be accented more.
--a feeling of immersion in the world

I think this is a pretty good list of the characteristics of the "moo metaphor" (if we want to call it that?).  Please add in others as you think about them.

Jan had a couple of reactions to v4 and v5:
--frames split the world and affect the feeling of "immersion."  In a text-moo, there was just one world--the text--so one was immersed in it alone.  I'm not sure how to do away with frames and the split in the world as it is right now.  There was a lot of discussion about redesigning the interface with the goal of dealing with this issue, but I think that goal is probably one best left for v6.  In The World of Warcraft the chat text overlays the graphics of the space so the words are IN the space.  That is interesting.  I wonder if there is a way to overlay something like a dynamic window that opens over/in the space and expands or contracts as the user wishes.  I'm thinking here of something like "layers" that I can use when I create webpages in Dreamweaver.  I can insert a "layer" into the webpage and it shows without any sense that it is a separate object. 

--Jan noted the same thing you did Kevin about the WHO browser.  It was problematic to move the characters "out" of the room if the "room" is perceived to exist within the right panel. 

--Jan also noticed a small thing with the dialogue in the new HTML chat.  Characters talk with colons now rather than "says"--Lennie:  vs. Lennie says, "
It is a small thing and perhaps not worth worrying about, but it was an example of individual expression.  We also picked up that the return dynamic from the previous way the chat worked changed.  When you talked before it would say, "You said, 'aldfafdfaldf.'  There was a difference between what you saw from your perspective and what the others in the room saw.  I know this causes some confusion, but it did contribute to the "character-centered" point of view.

As I have mentioned to Daniel, I believe there is a balance.  I don't propose that we should turn enCore into the 3-D World of Warcraft; neither do I propose we turn into WebCT or Moodle.  But WoW does help us clarify some of the moo metaphor characteristics that we can try in our own way to replicate, and we already have many course platform features that we should also continue to develop.

Lennie 

At 11:56 PM 8/16/2005, Kevin Jepson wrote:
Hi Daniel and All.
 
I read your document at: http://lingo.uib.no/v5/frames.html and you make some excellant points WRT the difficulties of meshing the WEB side with the TEXT/MOO side.
 
Your critique of V4 is very similar in many respects to what I was trying to say in my posts on the metaphors.
 
I think your comment about the difficulty users have with the "look" button is very apropos of the issue. 
 
What does the look button really do?
 
It is a kind of "back" button from the WEB and DESKTOP metaphors and a "virtual exit" from the MOO metaphor.  None of which is what the user would intuit from the actions that they "see".
 
The following quote hits it bang on the head:
 
Daniel said:" This (the documents covering web_frame) is an important part of the reason many of my users never got the idea that there were real-life metaphor rooms, and that they in fact were part of it. What many of them do, is log in, find the recorder log of the last (unattended) class, click on it, read it and/or print it and log off again. They are using the MOO for browsing resources, and even ask me to please make it more windows-like, with a folder and document hierarchy, since the way it is now is so weird, unintuitive and cumbersome. My guess is: If the current room always were a non-vanishing part of the GUI, those users (or: many modern users) would more easily accept rooms as structuring unit, and not search for folder and document hierarchy. "
 
Exactly, the "room metaphor" is actually suppressed by the interface as we have it now.
 
IMHO, V5 doesn't help that and even makes it worse with the people viewer block.
 
I understand your rationale for keeping it separate but keeping that list "out of the room" is not conducive to maintaining the room metaphor structure.
 
Daniel said:" The role of the room as a structuring unit is down-played considerably when the space it is displayed in is also used for other, non-room-things. So let's stick to the word web_frame, and let's not call it room_frame or "the room", because conceptually, it isn't. "
 
Bingo.
 
Therein lies the whole problem IMHO, we have a great collection of tools here that just don't mesh in a way that brings the user along with an "unrealized and unforced" acceptance of the spatial metaphors of MOO.  We use the words for rooms, exits etc, but they don't really behave as we would expect such things to behave.
 
For example, on the WEB frame we see a list of the exits available for a user to take.  They all look alike and they all point the same direction, to the right.  There is no spatial information there simply a link for the user to click, like any standard web page.  The exits are also labelled AS THEIR DESTINATIONS not as directions that LEAD to a destination. To make matters worse, in V5 there is no text based way to see or move in any "direction" at all.  The user is forced to click one of these links.  That is not a spatial "move", a walk, a jaunt, a stroll or anything other than a hypertext like jump.  V5 essentially forces users to TELEPORT every time they change rooms. 
 
No wonder the spatial metaphor is broken. We have no way to give the user any information from which to build an internal representation of the "space".
 
This is a common problem many website designers struggle with.  How do they assist the user in generating a map of the site to aid in their navigation.  The Hypertext WEB metaphor is really bad for that and it is a rare website that succeeds in making it clear how the pages are related.
 
MOO never had that problem in text mode, as long as the builders didn't violate the expected rules of three space. If I go West I can go back by going East, if I climb UP a tree I can reach the ground again by going DOWN.  This paper by Jolanda G. Tromp  "Results of two surveys about Spatial Perception and Navigation in a Text-Based Spatial Interface"  1993, has an excellent discussion on how people navigate textual/spatial systems. There is a copy of the paper here: http://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/documentation/VE/WWW5/ori/jola.ps 
 
We are essentially trying to invent a new system, one which has no real life analogue like the spatial metaphors of text.  That process is certainly fraught with difficulty and I'm afraid we still have a long way to go.
 
I do not, in any way, wish to denigrate the hard work of Daniel, Jan and Cynthia et al, in having created and maintained the enCore system. 
 
The tools are there.
 
We may have to shift the emphasis and give the text tools back to the user to help them help themselves.
 
Ciao
KJ
=======================================================
Kevin Jepson R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting Inc.                   
An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.

Email: kevijeps@telusplanet.net
=======================================================

 
 

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--=====================_160808984==.ALT-- From bmcman@optonline.net Wed Aug 17 11:27:08 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:27:08 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C885BB3 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:27:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE4F1515 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:27:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08706-01-39 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:26:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.204]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D0F3442 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:26:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from optonline.net (ool-43578366.dyn.optonline.net [67.87.131.102]) by mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.06 (built May 11 2005)) with ESMTP id <0ILD00H43KBZRB05@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for encore@utdallas.edu; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:26:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:26:23 -0400 From: "Barbara F. McManus" Subject: [encore] Re: [Development] RE: Frames in V5 In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> To: Development@encore-consortium.org, encore@utdallas.edu Message-id: <4303652F.4040302@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1451 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: bmcman@optonline.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: bmcman@optonline.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore I have a number of thoughts on this issue which will make for a long post, but I'll try not to be too verbose. I guess the gist of my point can be summarized as this--we can't be all things to all people. Each of the programs discussed has its strengths (text-only MOO, 3-D immersive multiplayer game, course management system like Blackboard). As I understand it, enCore was created to integrate multimedia Web capabilities into the MOO to create a program that would work for *educational* purposes. It was not designed to replace any of the other programs mentioned, but rather to be something new; hence we are now proposing to describe enCore as an "Online Learning Environment" (OLE?) instead of as a MOO. It is this *educational* purpose that I think we have to keep paramount as we discuss how we are going to develop enCore. I understand what Kevin and others are saying about the more immersive and spatial characteristics of text-only MOOs; these may indeed be better for social MOOs, and there is no reason that such MOOs need to use the enCore database. However, as a person who taught a difficult subject to undergraduates for 33 years, I can say with absolute confidence that text-only MOOs have limited potential to engage students, especially those who are not self-motivated (unfortunately the majority these days). We live in a visual culture, and I learned early in my teaching career that I could not give my students a sense of the ancient world or even deeply interest them in it through words alone (even though that is pretty much how I had been taught). What the students found most attractive were what appeard to be visually realistic recreations of Rome in professionally produced films (e.g, Quo Vadis, Cleopatra, Spartacus, etc.). I did, of course, make use of these, but they were by no means the best educational tools. They did "immerse" the students in the ancient society and were certainly visually impressive, but they were expensive to use (think back to the days before cheaply rentable videotapes), often inaccurate, and quite limited in what aspects of the society they depicted. They kept the students as passive spectators and were not in any way customizable by the teacher. I present this as an analogy with 3D games like Worlds of Warcraft. These can be visually stunning and deeply engaging imaginatively. If well designed, they can also contribute to certain types of learning. But from the point of view of a teacher they have many of the drawbacks I mentioned above about commercial films. Because they are so expensive to create, they will focus only on certain things and exclude many others that may be very important in the classroom. There will be a charge for use that many educational institutions cannot afford. Although they may allow for some customization, this is only within severe limits created by the designers for their own purposes, not for the teachers. Text is present, but minimized. Lennie mentioned the text "layer" used in WoW. Yes, it didn't distract from the visuals or the sense of place, but it was hard to read and kept to short utterances. There was no place for expository text, description, etc. that teachers need. Moreover, while WoW ingeniously gave players a sense of what it feels like to be in a multilingual situation, these were not real languages and there was no opportunity for players to use this environment to *learn* a language (i.e., players only typed and read their own language while supposedly communicating in Elven or whatever). V5 of enCore, on the other hand, thanks to Daniel's great work, now has the potential to promote real learning of actual languages; while it is less immersive than WoW, it is certainly more *educational.* My solution to this dilemma in my classroom was for many years the slide projector (and more recently PowerPoint). The images were static but, when coupled with words and some creative methods of presentation, enabled my students to construct in their own minds a visual and imaginative recreation of whatever aspect of the ancient world we were studying. This is why I was so excited when BioGate and then enCore gave us a way to do this online, with the added benefit of synchronous communication. Our experience in VRoma leads me to disagree with Kevin and others that the use of frames and web pages necessarily detracts from the sense of place. Place is key to the whole concept of the "historic" part of VRoma, where we are reconstructing the ancient city of Rome and its major monuments. We use images and maps and topographical plans, along with expository text, in the right window to *emphasize* the sense of place by helping players visualize where they are, and assignments try to integrate the purpose of the chat with the place where they are standing. Interactive objects in the rooms do this too. Frames that keep the chat and the web together on the screen actually *help* rather than hinder this process; being able to constantly look back and forth between the chat and the web windows enables players to weave together in their minds the visuals, the exposition, and the actions into an imaginative sense of "being there." Separating these into floating windows that would minimize all the time would be disastrous for us. Perhaps frames are not an *ideal* way to keep these things together, but they are adequate for now and can be replaced with better methods when these become available. In sum, my argument is this: While text-only MOOs and 3D visual games are both more immersive and strictly compliant with a spatial metaphor, neither is fully suitable for educational purposes in the sense required by teachers and students. enCore was created for educational purposes and I think we should keep that as our *primary* focus. We are now juggling two balls, the multimedia capabilities of the Web and the synchronous, object-oriented, spatial capabilities of MOO, and I think we have to try to keep both in the air, because that is what makes enCore unique. Best, Barbara -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Barbara F. McManus, Professor of Classics Emerita The College of New Rochelle, New Rochelle, NY 10805 Co-Director, The VRoma Project or http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/ http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/ From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Aug 17 13:22:33 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:22:34 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD08E5BB3 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A201593 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 17982-01-38 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:22:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525333537 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:19:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050817181910.OHQD13550.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:19:10 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , , Subject: [encore] Re: [Development] RE: Frames in V5 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:18:57 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c5a358$2292e930$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <4303652F.4040302@optonline.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1452 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Barbara and All You are right to point out that the requirements of an Educational = "Online Learning Environment" is different than a gaming or social environment. I often loose track of those myself because I primarily use MOO for the = VR effect of immersion in a created online space. The very few times I have invited guests to my MOO, relatives and friends mostly, were disasters precisely because they didn't know what the point of "being there" was. = :( Barbara said: "In sum, my argument is this: While text-only MOOs and 3D visual games=20 are both more immersive and strictly compliant with a spatial metaphor,=20 neither is fully suitable for educational purposes in the sense required = by teachers and students. enCore was created for educational purposes=20 and I think we should keep that as our *primary* focus. We are now=20 juggling two balls, the multimedia capabilities of the Web and the=20 synchronous, object-oriented, spatial capabilities of MOO, and I think=20 we have to try to keep both in the air, because that is what makes=20 enCore unique." I agree and think we can do both with enCore. As Lennie pointed out we have now got, thanks to all the hard work of = the programmers, many tools and objects that would make using the OLE in an educational environment much easier. And since they exist in essentially pure MOO code form (which is brilliant, IMHO) they can be used = regardless of the interface we have pasted on top. I also think Jan's comments at the symposium, as reported by Lennie = (Will there be a transcript of the presentation/sessions?), are indicative of = how he sees the need for the MOO kind of immersion. The useability study is also a great indicator of things to look at WRT changes we might like to pursue. I'm trying to mock up a graphic, thanks to Daniel for the idea of using = a visual aid :) that would show a slightly different approach to the = layout of the interface that might help. I would be interested in how you, who = use enCore for educational purposes, would use such a modified interface. More later. I look forward to more discussion. Ciao KJ --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.11/74 - Release Date: = 17/08/2005 =20 From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Aug 17 16:13:07 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:13:07 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9875BE0 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:13:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114651570 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:13:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 02405-01-38 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A261D3442 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:12:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050817211246.YRAL17559.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:12:46 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Subject: [encore] Interface idea was RE: Frames in V5 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:12:20 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c5a370$60f041b0$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A33E.1655D1B0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1453 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A33E.1655D1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Afternoon Folks =20 Ok, here is one way I think we could easily change the interface to = bring back some of the immersive qualities that we have been talking about. =20 =20 Note: "easily" is relative, Daniel might not agree :) =20 The following is a crude cut and paste mock-up using my version 4 EnCore MOO.=20 HYPERLINK "http://www3.telus.net/gryphons/interface1.JPG"http://www3.telus.net/gryp= hon s/interface1.JPG =20 You'll notice that it is pretty much a standard version 4 layout when = set for horizontal. =20 This horizontal layout is important, IMHO, because it ties into the scrolling text structure, unlike the vertical one which forces the user = to switch "back and forth". This layout does reduce the graphics space available for illustrations within the room description a bit without scrolling, though. =20 The list of users shown on the right hand side could also be a version = of the "Who Frame" that Daniel has added to V5. If a hidden frame was used for that a similar hidden frame could be used = for the contents. While that would reduce the space for the description even more it would fix the layout. That way when moving, objects, people and exits could easily be updated and kept current without loosing them in = the refresh or to the vagaries of the rooms decorations. =20 The "Exit Frame" lists the obvious exits of the room and makes them clickable. The key thing here is that the link is the DIRECTION of the exit. A user can also type that direction in the chat to move as well.=20 The exit frame would update only when the user moves and could be = updated by the look cmd. =20 I would also make sure that exit messages were turned back on so that = the users would get feedback on their movements and those of others.=20 =20 This isn't really a big change but I do think it would drastically = change a users perception of the "space" in which they are "moving". =20 The toolbar at the top gives quick access to all the great tools and accessories that enCore has, and looks cool and professional as well. = The ship graphic at the bottom (while being a bit of a nautical conceit on = my part) could be a system block for messages like pages, channels etc. = The reason I added that is that I find if the chat window is too wide it = gets hard to read conversations before the screen scrolls. =20 So why do I think such a layout would improve the spatial perception of users? =20 When the user sees this layout they notice the same things Daniel = pointed out in his real world example. The room itself, it's contents, it's = people and it's exits. =20 =20 The exits are important because they place the room in it's spatial = context. Including the direction of the exit as well as it's destination locks = the room into a mental map of where the user is relative to other places. = For example the user knows that "The Widow's Walk" is probably up the = "Spiral Staircase" from Max's study because the "Portal" is down. To exit the = room one could go "Out" to the "Font Porch", which is logical, and the "Misty Stones" are probably somewhere out "back".=20 =20 All of this is apparent as soon as the user reads the description and = then logically keeps reading the contents list and users list and then the = exits. This is how we treat a real room essentially. =20 A click on an object or person, or typing "look object" in chat, would replace the whole description frame AND the contents and who frames with = the equivalent info of the object. We then still have the problem of = getting back, but a quick "look" in chat would pop back the same as the look = button on the toolbar does. =20 Using this layout I would suggest that documents and views of linked materials should be in a new browser window so that proper formatting = could be maintained. That is how the client works now in telnet only mode. =20 The immersion is enhanced here because everything the user does is = framed by the space. They are IN the space all the time not "beside it" or linked = to it somehow. Their interactions are always in the context of the room, = it's exits and contents. That is what you get by default in a text based moo = and with this layout you get much richer content with a minimized = disruption. All IMHO of course :) =20 Comments and critiques welcome. =20 Ciao KJ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. =20 An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. Email: kevijeps@telusplanet.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.11/74 - Release Date: = 17/08/2005 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A33E.1655D1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Good = Afternoon=20 Folks
 
Ok, = here is one way=20 I think we could easily change the interface to bring back some of the = immersive=20 qualities that we have been talking about. 
 
Note: = "easily" is=20 relative, Daniel might not agree :)
 
The = following is a=20 crude cut and paste mock-up using my version 4 EnCore=20 MOO. 
http://www3.telus.= net/gryphons/interface1.JPG
 
You'll = notice that=20 it is pretty much a standard version 4 layout when set for=20 horizontal.  
This = horizontal=20 layout is important, IMHO, because it ties into the scrolling text=20 structure, unlike the vertical one which forces the user to switch "back = and=20 forth".  This layout does reduce the graphics space = available for=20  illustrations within the room = description a=20 bit without scrolling, though.
 
The = list of users=20 shown on the right hand side could also be a version of the "Who Frame" = that=20 Daniel has added to V5.
If a = hidden frame=20 was used for that a similar hidden frame could be used for the contents. = While=20 that would reduce the space for the description even more it would fix = the=20 layout. That way when moving, objects, people and exits could = easily=20 be updated and kept current without loosing them in the refresh or to = the=20 vagaries of the rooms decorations.
 
The = "Exit Frame"=20 lists the obvious exits of the room and makes them clickable.  The = key=20 thing here is that the link is the DIRECTION of the exit. A user can = also type=20 that direction in the chat to move as well.
The = exit frame would=20 update only when the user moves and could be updated by the look=20 cmd.
 
I = would also make=20 sure that exit messages were turned back on so that the users would = get=20 feedback on their movements and those of = others. 
 
This = isn't really a=20 big change but I do think it would drastically change a users perception = of the=20 "space" in which they are "moving".
 
The = toolbar at the=20 top gives quick access to all the great tools and accessories that = enCore has,=20 and looks cool and professional as well.  The ship graphic at the = bottom=20 (while being a bit of a nautical conceit on my part) could be a system = block for=20 messages like pages, channels etc.  The reason I added that is that = I find=20 if the chat window is too wide it gets hard to read conversations before = the=20 screen scrolls.
 
So why = do I think=20 such a layout would improve the spatial perception of = users?
 
When = the user sees=20 this layout they notice the same things Daniel pointed out in his real = world=20 example.  The room itself, it's contents, it's people and it's = exits. =20
 
The = exits are=20 important because they place the room in it's spatial context.  = Including=20 the direction of the exit as well as it's destination locks the room = into a=20 mental map of where the user is relative to other places. For example = the user=20 knows that "The Widow's Walk" is probably up the "Spiral=20 Staircase" from Max's study because the "Portal" is down.  To = exit the=20 room one could go "Out" to the "Font Porch", which is logical, and the = "Misty=20 Stones" are probably somewhere out "back". 
 
All of = this=20 is apparent as soon as the user reads the description and then = logically=20 keeps reading the contents list and users list and then the exits.  = This is=20 how we treat a real room essentially.
 
A = click on an object=20 or person, or typing "look object" in chat, would replace the whole = description frame AND the contents and who frames with the equivalent = info of=20 the object.  We then still have the problem of getting back, but a = quick=20 "look" in chat would pop back the same as the look button on the = toolbar=20 does.
 
Using = this layout I=20 would suggest that documents and views of linked materials should be in = a new=20 browser window so that proper formatting could be maintained.  That = is how=20 the client works now in telnet only mode.
 
The = immersion is=20 enhanced here because everything the user does is framed by the = space. =20 They are IN the space all the time not "beside it" or linked to it=20 somehow.  Their interactions are always in the context of the room, = it's=20 exits and contents.  That is what you get by default in a text = based moo=20 and with this layout you get much richer content with a minimized=20 disruption.  All IMHO of course :)
 
Comments and=20 critiques welcome.
 
Ciao
KJ

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Kevin=20 Jepson R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;        
An't=20 nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.
Email:=20 kevijeps@telusplanet.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 =20

 

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.11/74 - Release Date: = 17/08/2005

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A33E.1655D1B0-- From jung@uib.no Wed Aug 17 16:38:06 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:38:06 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856065BE0 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:38:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5280712DB for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:38:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 04936-01-16 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:37:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723183435 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:37:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E5Vbf-0003le-Cr; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:37:56 +0200 Received: from 117.84-48-30.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [84.48.30.117] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E5Vbe-0000HG-Uj; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:37:55 +0200 Message-ID: <4303ACAF.6060801@uib.no> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:31:27 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Development@encore-consortium.org, encore@utdallas.edu Cc: Jan Rune Holmevik Subject: [encore] sensitive say, immersion, authoring References: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: e74bd07fbdd64a683fbbe578539b5d6f http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1454 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore In reply to Lennie, in his post Re: [encore] Re: [Development] RE: Frames in V5 Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:42:18 +0200 Lennie Irvin wrote: > This is an excellent discussion. Agree! And thanks for you further comments. I am overloaded with other work this week, so I cannot possible use my time as I could wish: here. Comments on Kevin's remarks will have until later. Two remarks though to Lennie/Jan: First point > --Jan also noticed a small thing with the dialogue in the new HTML > chat. Characters talk with colons now rather than "says"--Lennie: vs. > Lennie says, " Not really. It's not "how it is now". Due to different reasons, I have temporarily disabled it, so it wasn't visible, but it will be back online soon. There is a rather sophisticated set of language sensitive verba dicendi used. Language sensitive in that, e.g., George, who has English as his primary language, will read Bill says, What a wonderful day. Jill asks, How's it going? Will shouts, When will this stop!!! At the same time, in the same room, Jorge, who is Spanish, will read (the exact same conversation) Bill dice: - What a wonderful day. Jill pregunta: - How's it going? Will habla a gritos: - When will this stop!!! while Georges, the Frenchman, reads: Bill dit: « What a wonderful day. » Jill pose une question: « How's it going? » Will s'écrie: « When will this stop!!! » and Jürgen, the German, reads: Bill sagt: "What a wonderful day." Jill fragt: "How's it going?" Will ruft: "When will this stop!!!" and so on. Notice, BTW, how the target language's culture's typographical tradition for rendering conversation in writing is considered. Since all objects have a language property set on them, so does the recorder, and the recorder will then tape the conversation according to its "English" or "Spanish" ears. The language of an object (including recorders) is that of the creator, at the time of its creation. This is "player-defined language setting". By the way: In "area-defined language setting" MOOs like MOOssiggang, this property is "transparent", and the object takes the language of whatever room it is in. In a German room, the conversation will be taped with German ears, in an English room, it will be taped with English ears. When the recorder is moved from one type of room to the other, it "changes" its language in that its "transparency" makes it be whatever the room is. In German rooms, all participants will read "Bill sagt:" etc. This is not an idea. This is implemented and works. There are two reasons why I disabled it temporarily: (1) Some languages have gender sensitive conjugations for their verba dicendi (in a broad sence). In, e.g., French, a girl and a boy are excited in grammatically different ways (OK, a rather strong word in French, but let me use it as an example): Georgette est excitée: « What a wonderful day!!! » Georges est excité: « I utterly agree!!! » I have made a HUGE gender redesign throughout the MOO, but at this point I don't know if and how that can or should be included into the main distro. Especially when it comes to the next point. (2) In one of the MOOs I have worked on, I have included room-overrides. E.g., when you create a library, you don't want people to talk loudly in there. Hush! After all, libraries are for silent reading and for peace of mind. So all conversation there should be conducted in an polite and quiet manner. The conversation could then read, Bill whispers: "What a wonderful day." Jill asks restraindly: "How's it going?" Will barely raises his voice: "When will this stop!!!" At this point, I don't really know how to make this available for all languages at once (I mean, setting through interface). If I want the system to be consistent, a German user and an English would need to read the library conversation differently. But I cannot possibly expect the Spanish user who created the library to know (and set) what the German and the English user should be reading, let alone include grammatical subtleties like gender sensitive conjugation. Any help (in thinking this through) would be highly appreciated. Second point: > We also picked up that the return > dynamic from the previous way the chat worked changed. When you talked > before it would say, "You said, 'aldfafdfaldf.' > There was a difference > between what you saw from your perspective and what the others in the > room saw. I know this causes some confusion, but it did contribute to > the "character-centered" point of view. The reason I chose to change "You say" to "%p says" is an attempt to make utterances more emote-like. I agree on that it makes it less "character-centered", but in return, it makes it more "community-centered", or: situationalized (or situative). I will explain that below. One digression first. When I wanted to translate the text commands like 'look' or 'drop xyz' into German long ago, I wondered if those were imperatives or infinitives (the grammatical English form not being clear), and why. I was then told that those were all imperatives. I was told that the figur on the screen was not me, but that I steered an avatar through virtual space, and that I had to tell my avatar to say "Hello", so the avatar could say "Hello" to the other avatars. I had to have him look so he could report back to me what was there. All I wanted to do had to be instructions to that avatar of mine, a zombie more or less, who only accepted a rather poor set of imperatives. I found this peculiar, but very interesting. Condider the emote. Typing ':scratches his head' will NOT render 'You scratch your head', but 'Daniel scratches his head'. The same goes for 'think' and so on. Why is that? Apart from huge grammatical impact on parsing and re-rendering, I guess the idea is because the player here must take the author's role, or: be part of the collaborative authoring of the situation. The participants create a virtual space where they act as both participants and creators. When I type: ':reads the writing on the wall', I am in fact the author, or co-author, of the imagined situation; I take a step out of my character and taking a narrative role. In my introductions, I always emphasize, and urge, the users to make use of the emote function, going on and on about how important it is to be co-creators of the community as such and the actual conversation in particular. And that doing so in a foreign language (after all, my project develops MOOs for language learning) really triggers psychological and linguistic processes in people's brains. And that it makes it just fun (and educational) to be there for everybody. I had this in mind when I took away the "You say-receipt" and replaced it with what "everybody" reads. I still don't think it ruins, or diminishes, the worth and value of the character in a collaborative situation, or alienates the user. (Nothing of this has been said, I know.) I think this worth and value can be searched for, and found, in utterances, collaboration and manners, namely: to contribute to a co-authored conversation in a personal way. Again, I would really have loved to hear Jan's speech at Dallas for myself, and hear his opinion about "character-centeredness" (and its relation to "situatedness") first hand. I think I missed something important. So I challange Jan to put this particular item down in writing, if time allows. It might be very valuable, to me, and all. - Daniel From bmcman@optonline.net Wed Aug 17 18:12:50 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802125BE0 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFEA13C3 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 10261-01-57 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7322342C for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from optonline.net (ool-43578366.dyn.optonline.net [67.87.131.102]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.06 (built May 11 2005)) with ESMTP id <0ILE00JXC3596BM3@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for encore@utdallas.edu; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:12:45 -0400 From: "Barbara F. McManus" Subject: [encore] Re: [Development] sensitive say, immersion, authoring In-reply-to: <4303ACAF.6060801@uib.no> To: Development@encore-consortium.org, encore@utdallas.edu Cc: Jan Rune Holmevik Message-id: <4303C46D.3070903@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> <4303ACAF.6060801@uib.no> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1455 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: bmcman@optonline.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: bmcman@optonline.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Daniel Jung wrote: > I am overloaded with other work this week, so I cannot possible use my > time as I could wish: here. Comments on Kevin's remarks will have > until later. I want to emphasize, Daniel, that we do *not* expect you to keep making changes in V5 or responding to everything we discuss here. We know how busy you are and greatly appreciate all the time you have put in for the symposium, the usability study, and this flurry of discussion. Barbara shouts, "I am ecstatic about the new language features!" Barbara clamat, "linguae facultates novae me gaudio elatae sunt!" The features Daniel has described for us absolutely underline my earlier point about enCore helping to make language learning possible in an imaginative and engaging way. Barbara is also interested in learning more about the gender redesign (not now, she hastens to add, but when you have the time, Daniel). > > The reason I chose to change "You say" to "%p says" is an attempt to > make utterances more emote-like. I agree on that it makes it less > "character-centered", but in return, it makes it more > "community-centered", or: situationalized (or situative). I > guess the idea is because the player here must take the author's role, > or: be part of the collaborative authoring of the situation. The > participants create a virtual space where they act as both > participants and creators. When I type: ':reads the writing on the > wall', I am in fact the author, or co-author, of the imagined > situation; I take a step out of my character and taking a narrative role. > In my introductions, I always emphasize, and urge, the users to make > use of the emote function, going on and on about how important it is > to be co-creators of the community as such and the actual conversation > in particular. And that doing so in a foreign language (after all, my > project develops MOOs for language learning) really triggers > psychological and linguistic processes in people's brains. And that it > makes it just fun (and educational) to be there for everybody. I fully agree with this point. As a newbie in MOO I just talked, but once I started emoting and varying my ways of interacting with others, everything got much more interesting for all of us. And it is a great way to promote facility with languages. I do not think the "You say" is that important for rendering character-centeredness. Best, Barbara -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Barbara F. McManus, Professor of Classics Emerita The College of New Rochelle, New Rochelle, NY 10805 Co-Director, The VRoma Project or http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/ http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/ From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Thu Aug 18 06:34:40 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:41 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E485BD0 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA281674 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 09805-01-8 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 11FAC3452 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.15] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:33:39 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050818063316.01cf7db8@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:34:32 -0500 To: Development@encore-consortium.org, encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: [Development] RE: Frames in V5 In-Reply-To: <4303652F.4040302@optonline.net> References: <002301c5a2e8$14921ec0$640119ac@lilith> <6.2.0.14.0.20050817061252.01d078c8@accdvm.accd.edu> <4303652F.4040302@optonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1456 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Lennie nods vigorously while reading Barbara's post about frames. I really= =20 like Barbara's emphasis on enCore as an application for educational=20 purposes and that it is really something different. I can say right now that one of enCore's biggest strengths is the ability=20 to view a web page and chat about it at the same time. This may be a=20 "conferencing software" type function, but it is highly useful for=20 educational purposes and coupled with enCore's fabulous chat features is a= =20 real strength for enCore. One thing the v5 will do with its slide=20 projector is enhance this ability to view presentational material in the=20 viewing panel and chat about it in the text panel. Amen to Barbara! I have been pondering Kevin's interface idea. I can see the way the=20 vertical layout promotes the "unified" sense of being in a single space. I= =20 can see a problem, though, if you do have a room description that has a=20 large amount of text or a graphic=ADas before, the image of the people in= the=20 room are pushed to the bottom out of view (and so many people will not be=20 aware of them). Also, the vertical layout doesn't make it easy to view a= =20 webpage (or text) and chat about it at the same time in the same window. I= =20 agree making documents or webpages that are going to be presented open in a= =20 separate window will work, but the multiple window thing I think make=20 simultaneous chatting and viewing very hard. I'm still pondering the change though. I like the way navigation is made=20 clearer in this design. Lennie From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Fri Aug 19 11:16:40 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:16:40 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E653D5BBE for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF821839 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15293-01-5 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:16:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194A73435 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:16:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050819161628.FAQR13879.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@lilith> for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:16:28 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: Subject: [encore] Computers, Storytelling and World Creation --- The Reader as Writer Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:15:29 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c5a4d9$37829390$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A4A6.ECE82390" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1457 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A4A6.ECE82390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks =20 While doing a bit of MOO info surfing I came across this paper by = Michael Widerkrantz at the Department of Language and Literature, Link=F6ping University in Sweden, written in October 1994. =20 He makes an interesting comparison between literary worlds, in this case Tolkien's creation, and interactive fiction worlds, like MOOs. =20 HYPERLINK "http://www.hack.org/~mc/writings/world2.txt"http://www.hack.org/~mc/writ= ing s/world2.txt =20 Enjoy KJ =20 P.S. I hope people don't mind me posting such gems to the list. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. =20 An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. PHONE: (403) 875-8372 Email: kevijeps@telusplanet.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: = 19/08/2005 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A4A6.ECE82390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hi=20 Folks
 
While = doing a bit of=20 MOO info surfing I came across this paper by Michael = Widerkrantz=20 at the = Department of=20 Language and Literature, Link=F6ping University in Sweden, = written=20 in October 1994.
 
He makes an interesting comparison between = literary=20 worlds, in this case Tolkien's creation, and interactive fiction worlds, = like=20 MOOs.
 
http://www.hack.org/= ~mc/writings/world2.txt
 
Enjoy
KJ
 
P.S. I hope=20 people don't mind me posting such gems to the=20 list.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Kevin=20 Jepson R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;        
An't=20 nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.

PHONE: (403) = 875-8372
Email:=20 kevijeps@telusplanet.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 =20

 

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: = 19/08/2005

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A4A6.ECE82390-- From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Aug 24 23:44:37 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A2E5C89 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40BF15F9 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:44:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 19982-01-29 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:44:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D923392 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:44:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050825044429.SQCY3795.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:44:29 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Subject: [encore] Warning long post! More Moo Thoughts Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:44:13 -0600 Message-ID: <001001c5a92f$a5310f20$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1458 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Warning long post! More Moo Thoughts Kevin_J waves to everyone. Kevin_J says: Good Evening Folks :) I really enjoyed the online meeting we had during the symposium and I've been playing around in the new version 5 of enCore since then. I really encourage anyone, who hasn't had a chance to try it out, to get a User = ID and give it a run. While doing that, I've been thinking back on our discussions about the Spatial Metaphor and the competing metaphors of MOO, WEB and DESKTOP. = The competition/contrast between them is very obvious when using the new version, more so in fact than when using our current and previous = versions. As I've "wandered" around and tried out my usual ways of doing things = I've found some, IMHO, serious issues with how enCore effects the original = MOO metaphor and therefore the Spatial Metaphor itself. I in no way want to suggest that enCore in it's current or beta form is somehow "flawed" or wrong. I also do not want what follows to be = considered a critique or flame of the great work Daniel has done on v5. A massive programming effort