From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Thu Jun 2 10:12:09 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:12:09 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BD25BC0 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:12:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5391643 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:12:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 12623-01-95 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:12:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 81D3E3434 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:12:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gh-208-300633.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.41] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:11:07 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050602095652.01d43c30@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:05:57 -0500 To: steering@encore-consortium.org From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] 2005C&WOnline presentation Cc: encore@utdallas.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1403 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Everyone, I am presenting next Wednesday at the Computers & Writing Online conference. My presentation will be about the enCore Consortium and the development of the new enCore v5, and I would love it if any one else in the Consortium could attend. Here is a thread started in reply to my presentation proposal: http://kairosnews.org/node/4288. My discussion will also be about the present state of MOO as a learning environment. The presentation will be June 8th from 7-8:30 and will meet in ProNoun MOO to begin with http://linnell.english.purdue.edu:7000/. (see schedule http://kairosnews.org/node/4305). I think my presentation is the ONLY MOO presentation being given. In terms of the history of Computers & Writing Online, I think that is pretty significant. I am hoping, with Daniel's permission, to take a field trip to the beta v5 enCore site. (Lennie looks inquiringly at Daniel.) If Daniel isn't ready yet for visitors, then I hope to use some screen shots. Take care, Lennie From jung@uib.no Thu Jun 2 16:54:23 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:54:24 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB305BAD for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:54:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83162169C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:54:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23111-02-65 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:54:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795073456 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ddxde-0003ZL-N3; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:54:10 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ddxde-0007m2-CY; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:54:06 +0200 Message-ID: <429F7F20.5040502@uib.no> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:50:24 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Help still needed on Java Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: 5a56c34cab89264e667d6d905a501c33 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1404 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore OK folks, I still need help. Maybe it is easier to gain interest when the description is clearer. I'm pasting a copy of what I just submitted to http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=274607 Thanks for any advice. ---------------- *** Description: I have a web app with a java applet in a frame in the main frameset. The applet is jar-ed in java 1 and doesn't use neither fancy nor deprecated syntax or methods. The applet is fetched from a subfolder of where the web page is. The applet runs on any browser tested on windows. On MAC OSX on Macintosh, Safari and Opera do work. On Fx, it won't. Neither would it on Netscape and Moz. I'm using the lastest official builds (not nightlies). All of these use the same java version (I think). It draws a thin light green border around the space for the applet (here: 20/90). This changes accordingly to the dimensions in the source code when the latter are changed. Applet stays white. *** Reproducible: Always. Tested on different machines with slightly different MAC OS versions. However, I haven't acces to a wide range of browsers and machines for MAC. Please run tests in different builds to verify this behaviour. Thanks. *** Guess: I don't know if Gecko reads the source code throughout, but it recognizes the applet dimensions. I think it is something in the tagging--I have changed the order and the syntax (and the applet http path) in the attributes without any luck. Should be trying embed instead, but that must be compliant with IE (aaaarrrghhh) and I rather NOT write a browser fork. *** Remedy: I have read "Make Integration of mozilla and Java Plugin be better" (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185000). However, I didn't find anything on the green border nor on applet tagging syntax there. If this has been discussed, please point me discretely to the right spot. Thanks. *** HTML Snippet --------------- Thanks. - Daniel From WPainter@nccedu.com Tue Jun 7 03:14:18 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:14:18 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187F25BF1 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:14:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1D110A7 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:14:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 01313-01-81 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:14:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Greylist: delayed 729 seconds by postgrey-1.21 at mx2; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:14:13 CDT Received: from nccexch001.nccedu.com (195-102-153-3.uk.vianw.net [195.102.153.3]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id AE53E3392 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:14:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [encore] encore latest? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:01:23 +0100 Message-ID: From: "William Painter" To: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1405 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: WPainter@nccedu.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: WPainter@nccedu.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore I seem to be having trouble accessing ftp.utdallas.edu. Is the site = down? ---------------------------- William Painter, Ph.D. NCC Education +44 (0)161 438 6238 wpainter@nccedu.com =A0 =A0 From cynthiah@utdallas.edu Tue Jun 7 08:08:12 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968015BC0 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (66-169-106-136.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com [66.169.106.136]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399CE388E52; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:08:12 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:08:05 -0500 Subject: [encore] Re: encore latest? From: Cynthia Haynes To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1406 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: cynthiah@utdallas.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cynthiah@utdallas.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore William, No, the site isn't down to our knowledge. But if you're wanting the latest database, you might want to wait for v5 due out later this summer from Daniel Jung (Univ of Bergen, Norway). The enCore Consortium in conjunction with Texas Tech University is conducting a usability study now on the beta v5, and we will know more soon about the release date. This new version contains a ton of incredible new features. Best, Cynthia __Cynthia Haynes, Director of Rhetoric and Writing___________________ University of Texas at Dallas cynthiah@utdallas.edu School of Arts & Humanities http://www.utdallas.edu/~cynthiah PO Box 830688-JO 31 http://lingua.utdallas.edu:7000 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (O)972-883-6340 (F)972-883-2989 From cynthiah@utdallas.edu Wed Jun 8 09:24:12 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:24:12 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8BF5BB3 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (66-169-106-136.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com [66.169.106.136]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647B1388F8F; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:24:04 -0500 Subject: [encore] EnCore download From: Cynthia Haynes To: , Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1407 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: cynthiah@utdallas.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cynthiah@utdallas.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore William, Jan tested the download on the main enCore site, and it works. When I tested it using Firefox I got an error message for some reason. But when I tested it using Safari, it downloaded just fine. So, it must be a browser issue, but I'm not sure why or how to resolve it. Try using a different browser and see if that works. Best, Cynthia __Cynthia Haynes, Director of Rhetoric and Writing___________________ University of Texas at Dallas cynthiah@utdallas.edu School of Arts & Humanities http://www.utdallas.edu/~cynthiah PO Box 830688-JO 31 http://lingua.utdallas.edu:7000 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (O)972-883-6340 (F)972-883-2989 From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Jun 8 10:34:17 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE6A5BB3 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E94612A7 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:34:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23356-01-42 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id DDA2D3451 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:34:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gh-208-300633.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.41] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:33:16 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608102045.01d039f0@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:27:55 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] enCore discussion tonight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_81503906==.ALT" X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1408 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore --=====================_81503906==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, You are welcome to attend a conference presentation I am giving tonight for= =20 the Computers & Writing Online Conference entitled, "MOOs--The Second=20 Decade?" The session will be begin in ProNoun MOO at 7:00 PM CDT, and=20 after some discussion will shift over to the new beta enCore v5 site for a= =20 brief tour. Here is a help page with information for attending the conference at=20 ProNoun MOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/encore/CW2005/conf.htm Below is a description of the presentation as well as a list of discussion= =20 topics: MOO, or Multi-User Object Oriented Domains, were one of the first real time= =20 synchronous tools that connected "online" users within composition=20 classrooms or virtual communities in the early 1990s before the Internet.=20 But the text-based origins of MOO have not weathered well the growth of the= =20 Internet and the blog-era. Other online tools like blogs, CMS platforms=20 like Drupal, and course platforms like WebCT or Blackboard have dominated=20 the online teaching space for writing teachers in recent years. Some=20 question has been raised whether (as Tari Fanderclai stated) "MOO is dead."= =20 Last year saw a number of MOO decline landmarks=ADthe shift of the Computers= =20 & Writing Online synchronous discussions to another platform than a MOO and= =20 the death of Connections MOO. Can MOO evolve to fit a modern Internet=20 environment? This presentation will discuss the present state of MOO for the field of=20 Composition and Rhetoric. Is it still relevant and why? In particular, it=20 will showcase the new evolutions of the enCore Learning Environment and=20 discuss the effort of the new enCore Consortium created to support=20 development of the enCore. The presentation will highlight the unique=20 aspects of MOO (especially within an enCore interface) that are still=20 desirable features for teaching and collaborative learning. It will=20 showcase the new enCore version 5 and discuss the new directions enCore is= =20 taking to make MOO a viable online learning environment for the future. Overview of Presentation Topics: 1. Introductions 2. MOOs--where we have been; where we are 3. enCore's place and history 4. A description of the enCore Consortium and its mission 5. Goals and Projects of the Consortium 6. enCore version 5 description 7. Field trip to visit and explore the beta version of enCore version 5 I hope some of you can make it. We certainly will have an "open house" for= =20 the enCore community to see the new beta v5 some time in the near future if= =20 you can't make it tonight. Lennie Irvin cross-posted to the techrhet list as well as KairosNews --=====================_81503906==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone,

You are welcome to attend a conference presentation I am giving tonight for the Computers & Writing Online Conference entitled, "MOOs--The Second Decade?"  The session will be begin in ProNoun MOO at 7:00 PM CDT, and after some discussion will shift over to the new beta enCore v5 site for a brief tour. 

Here is a help page with information for attending the conference at ProNoun MOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/encore/CW2005/conf.htm

Below is a description of the presentation as well as a list of discussion topics:

MOO, or Multi-User Object Oriented Domains, were one of the first real time synchronous tools that connected "online" users within composition classrooms or virtual communities in the early 1990s before the Internet. But the text-based origins of MOO have not weathered well the growth of the Internet and the blog-era. Other online tools like blogs, CMS platforms like Drupal, and course platforms like WebCT or Blackboard have dominated the online teaching space for writing teachers in recent years. Some question has been raised whether (as Tari Fanderclai stated) "MOO is dead." Last year saw a number of MOO decline landmarks=ADthe shift of the Computers & Writing Online synchronous discussions to another platform than a MOO and the death of Connections MOO. Can MOO evolve to fit a modern Internet environment?

This presentation will discuss the present state of MOO for the field of Composition and Rhetoric. Is it still relevant and why? In particular, it will showcase the new evolutions of the enCore Learning Environment and discuss the effort of the new enCore Consortium created to support development of the enCore. The presentation will highlight the unique aspects of MOO (especially within an enCore interface) that are still desirable features for teaching and collaborative learning. It will showcase the new enCore version 5 and discuss the new directions enCore is taking to make MOO a viable online learning environment for the future.

Overview of Presentation Topics:
1. Introductions
2. MOOs--where we have been; where we are
3. enCore's place and history
4. A description of the enCore Consortium and its mission
5. Goals and Projects of the Consortium
6. enCore version 5 description
7. Field trip to visit and explore the beta version of enCore version 5

I hope some of you can make it.  We certainly will have an "open house" for the enCore community to see the new beta v5 some time in the near future if you can't make it tonight.

Lennie Irvin

cross-posted to the techrhet list as well as KairosNews

--=====================_81503906==.ALT-- From jung@uib.no Thu Jun 9 04:25:15 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 09 Jun 2005 04:25:15 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5F75CA4 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 04:25:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E6912A6 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 04:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 11273-02-19 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 04:25:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F6D3452 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 04:25:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DgJHh-0006Y3-O6; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:25:10 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DgJHh-0003lS-C1; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:25:09 +0200 Message-ID: <42A80A02.8040304@uib.no> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:21:06 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] testers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: cc9a480655ac9ca487eb47535b3cafbb http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1409 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi all I need testers soon. Any volunteers? The idea is to test the new enCore features under a maximum of configurations, meaning, different [combinations of] * Operating systems, including rare ones like OS/2 and older ones like MAC OS 8 * Browsers, including old versions * Java vendors/versions So if you happen run e.g., different versions of Opera on a Linux machine, or run a slightly different VM on Solaris... it would be great if you participated in testing. If you have just one (older/peculiar) config, that would be great too. Just drop me a note. Thanks. - Daniel From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Thu Jun 9 06:21:01 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:21:01 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF7A5CA4 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:21:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C620813C6 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:21:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 16794-02-61 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:20:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id B0687342E for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:20:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.14] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:20:03 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050609061627.01ca02a0@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:21:51 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] MOO--Second Decade? transcript Cc: jung@uib.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1410 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Last nights C&WOnline session went really well. For those who are interested, here is the transcript: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/encore/CW2005/TranscriptC&W2005.htm ***************************** Special Note to those who attended: The development site we visited for enCore v5 is still under construction, and Daniel Jung has asked that we not keep it open for public access at this point. Probably, it is best to wait until the official beta release for v5 for this kind of access. Also, some of you experienced some login difficulties and problems with the HTML chat. If you wouldn't mind describing your problems in an email to Daniel Jung (jung@uib.no), I know he would appreciate the input. Cheers, Lennie cross-posted techrhet and KairosNews From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Sat Jun 11 10:03:27 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:27 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E475BDD for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FBFDBE for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 09772-02-97 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D1E63451 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.14] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:02:27 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050611100139.01d34298@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:04:18 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Peoria Prize for Creativity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_151378546==.ALT" X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1411 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore --=====================_151378546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Everyone, This email announcement just came to me from a National Writing Project list I am part of. I thought enCore might be an interesting platform for going after this prize. Anyone have any ideas for a collaborative project? Lennie ********************************************************************************************* Announcing the Second Annual $10,000 Peoria Prize for Creativity The Peoria Prize is a $10,000 award for a creative project that is produced through a collaboration between a person or persons from the arts or humanities communities and a person or persons from the science, engineering, or business communities. It can be a project that is rendered in almost any form. Detailed information on the Peoria Prize for Creativity including a description of the prize and submission criteria can be found at http://www.peoriaprize.com Creative teams with collaborators from all over the country and the world competed for last year's Peoria Prize. The winner of the 2005 Peoria Prize for Creativity was Hands Across the Ocean: The Lost Chord, a project from the Digital Worlds Institute at Florida State University that involved 70 world-wide collaborators. A description of this winning project and those of the other two finalists can be found at http://www.peoriaprize.com --=====================_151378546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Everyone,

This email announcement just came to me from a National Writing Project list I am part of.  I thought enCore might be an interesting platform for going after this prize.  Anyone have any ideas for a collaborative project?

Lennie

*********************************************************************************************
Announcing the Second Annual $10,000 Peoria Prize for Creativity

 
The Peoria Prize is a $10,000 award for a creative project that is produced through a collaboration between a person or persons from the arts or humanities communities and a person or persons from the science, engineering, or business communities. It can be a project that is rendered in almost any form. Detailed information on the Peoria Prize for Creativity including a description of the prize and submission criteria can be found at http://www.peoriaprize.com
 
Creative teams with collaborators from all over the country and the world competed for last year's Peoria Prize.  The winner of the 2005 Peoria Prize for Creativity was Hands Across the Ocean: The Lost Chord, a project from the Digital Worlds Institute at Florida State University that involved 70 world-wide collaborators.  A
description of this winning project and those of the other two finalists can be found at http://www.peoriaprize.com
--=====================_151378546==.ALT-- From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Mon Jun 13 15:15:01 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB015BE4 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D69B67 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 28699-02-87 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:14:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59128346D for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050613201432.GEQ4722.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@lilith> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:14:32 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: Subject: [encore] Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:14:08 -0600 Message-ID: <001c01c57054$74baf360$650119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C57022.2A29AB20" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1412 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C57022.2A29AB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks =20 What follows is a little text based musing on the EnCore system from my personal point of view :) =20 I've been playing with EnCore since version 1 :) as it was the first integrated Web MOO I came across. =20 My test MOO is now at version 4. =20 I had a chance to take a gander at the Version 5 Beta during Lennie's presentation at Pronoun MOO (which is version 3.3 something) and there = are lot's of excellant new features there. =20 While very interesting, and certainly worthy of Kudos to Daniel for his = hard work, I started to think about how the integration of the Web into MOO changes the MOO drastically. =20 The combined WEB/MOO system, which is the center piece of EnCore MOOs, = is an excellant tool for education purposes but I think it is very = constraining for entertainment/social MOOs. The split between the text based action/navigation/chat and the web page version of objects and rooms is disruptive to the immersive value of MOO, IMHO. =20 =20 I find the screen real estate taken by the fixed frames to be excessive. Using a MOO client like TKMOO (my favourite client) I can keep my = session on the MOO (or even multiple ones) open as small unobtrusive windows around whatever I'm working on. Editing objects and descriptions for example, = is much easier because the window I use to "see" the results isn't covered = by the editor. =20 The web/java based utilities, like the mail system, object management = etc, are really useful because they "float" as separate windows. They also = clear up some of the biggest hurdles users have in using the editors and mail systems in MOO. =20 Ideally I would like to be able to use a web aware client, like TKMOO or CupOMud, or a java based client, like MOOTCAN, but have access to the = web based utilities of EnCore as well. That would be the best of all = possible worlds to me since the WEB piece of the picture would be invoked only = when needed. =20 =20 Currently to use an Express login (in IE only as version 4 of EnCore = doesn't seem to work with FireFox) I'm left trying to manipulate a lot of WEB = info simply to make the page that is displayed "look interesting". It = doesn't look good to have half the screen taken up by the description, contents = and the exits. There is a disconnect between clicking an icon to move or = view an object and moving via text commands.=20 =20 I use several non EnCore objects (Multi Room objects for the most part) = that do not fit into EnCore very well as they lack the integration built into = the objects included with EnCore. I've tried to change them to make the integration work. It seems to be more effort than warranted as the = objects work very well as text and the only WEB part needed can be "displayed" = or "viewed" as required. =20 Again the issue I have is that the WEB frame is more of a distraction = from the MOO itself, when actually doing something like chatting, moving or building. I like being able to display documents and images via the web frame but I don't like having to make everything have a web = representation just to use up the screen space. =20 All IMHO of course :) =20 How hard would it be to make the system able to accept other clients = while still making the excellant utilities from the toolbar frame available to = the user? =20 Ciao KJ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. =20 An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. Email: HYPERLINK "mailto:kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net"kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C57022.2A29AB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hi=20 folks
 
What = follows is a=20 little text based musing on the EnCore system from my personal point of = view=20 :)
 
I've = been playing=20 with EnCore since version 1 :) as it was the first integrated Web MOO I = came=20 across.
 
My = test MOO is now=20 at version 4.
 
I had = a chance to=20 take a gander at the Version 5 Beta during Lennie's presentation at = Pronoun=20 MOO (which is version 3.3 something) and there are lot's of = excellant new=20 features there.
 
While = very=20 interesting, and certainly worthy of Kudos to Daniel for his hard = work, I=20 started to think about how the integration of the Web into MOO changes = the MOO=20 drastically.
 
The = combined WEB/MOO=20 system, which is the center piece of EnCore MOOs, is an excellant tool = for=20 education purposes but I think it is very constraining for = entertainment/social=20 MOOs.  The split between the text based action/navigation/chat and = the web=20 page version of objects and rooms is disruptive to the immersive = value of=20 MOO, IMHO. 
 
I find = the screen=20 real estate taken by the fixed frames to be excessive.  Using a MOO = client=20 like TKMOO (my favourite client) I can keep my session on the MOO (or = even=20 multiple ones) open as small unobtrusive windows around whatever I'm = working=20 on.  Editing objects and descriptions for example, is much easier = because=20 the window I use to "see" the results isn't covered by the=20 editor.
 
The = web/java based=20 utilities, like the mail system, object management etc, are really = useful=20 because they "float" as separate windows. They also clear up some of the = biggest=20 hurdles users have in using the editors and mail systems in=20 MOO.
 
Ideally I would like=20 to be able to use a web aware client, like TKMOO or CupOMud, or a java = based=20 client, like MOOTCAN, but have access to the web based utilities of = EnCore=20 as well.  That would be the best of all possible worlds to me since = the WEB=20 piece of the picture would be invoked only when needed. =20
 
Currently to use an=20 Express login (in IE only as version 4 of EnCore doesn't seem = to work with=20 FireFox) I'm left trying to manipulate a lot of WEB info simply to = make the=20 page that is displayed "look interesting".  It doesn't look good to = have=20 half the screen taken up by the description, contents and the = exits. There=20 is a disconnect between clicking an icon to move or view an object = and=20 moving via text commands.
 
I use = several non=20 EnCore objects (Multi Room objects for the most = part) that do not=20 fit into EnCore very well as they lack the integration built into the = objects=20 included with EnCore.  I've tried to change them to make the = integration=20 work.  It seems to be more effort than warranted as the objects = work very=20 well as text and the only WEB part needed can be "displayed" or "viewed" = as=20 required.
 
Again = the issue I=20 have is that the WEB frame is more of a distraction from the MOO itself, = when=20 actually doing something like chatting, moving or building.  I like = being=20 able to display documents and images via the web frame but I don't like = having=20 to make everything have a web representation just to use up the screen=20 space.
 
All = IMHO of course=20 :)
 
How = hard would it be=20 to make the system able to accept other clients while still making the=20 excellant utilities from the toolbar frame available to the=20 user?
 
Ciao
KJ

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Kevin=20 Jepson R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;        
An't=20 nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.

Email: kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: = 11/06/2005

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C57022.2A29AB20-- From jung@uib.no Mon Jun 13 16:48:39 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:48:40 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07FD5BB3 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:48:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59FDBC7 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:48:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 09774-02-51 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:48:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF817342E for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:48:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DhwnJ-0002tE-Fp; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:48:34 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DhwnJ-00003c-7R; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:48:33 +0200 Message-ID: <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:44:17 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... References: <001c01c57054$74baf360$650119ac@lilith> In-Reply-To: <001c01c57054$74baf360$650119ac@lilith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: a417854054fbcbbe223fef9c50ed853b http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1413 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Kevin Thnaks for your thoughts and for sharing them! Kevin Jepson wrote: > [...] > The combined WEB/MOO system, which is the center piece of EnCore MOOs, is an > excellant tool for education purposes but I think it is very constraining > for entertainment/social MOOs. Yes and no. Depends on what you mean by `social' and `entertainment'. There are, in fact, a few features now which make `social behaviour' and maybe `entertainment' easier, e.g., MyBuddies are easier set and managed in web than in telnet. The development of enCore (for me) has had one goal, and that is making it suitable for educatinoal purposes. I see clearly that this path may have led away from the "read and feel" of earlier MOO systems. Player movement announcements were discontinued in version 3 for example. > I find the screen real estate taken by the fixed frames to be excessive. Agree. That is why we are talking about v6 already. We don't know yet where that might lead us, but there are suggestions to break up the main frame idea and do exactly what you are suggesting: Connect in different ways, with different layouts (I do not mean themes) and different purposes. The introduction of XHMTL in version 4 may lead to an XML extension and could then form the basis for an even more flexible assembling of needed and optional modules. I have been playing with the thought to explode all frames into loose windows. enCore/Xpress would then be displayed as, e.g., Photoshop, with the menubar floating and hidable etc. I have to much on my mind to do that now, but it is certainly an intriguing idea. We just have to figure out the window/box management and not go back to popup. My work on v5 points clearly in that direction: All windows and frames are completely resizable. Refreshing doesn't disconnect you any more, the Chat and commands are preserved as logs, viewable in web (i.e., other windows and frames than the applet, thus very customizable). > The web/java based utilities, like the mail system, object management etc, > are really useful because they "float" as separate windows. This is not consisten with the feedback I get fro many (inexperienced) users: They are confused by windows. They want one thing, and that's it. Any way, I don't think we should make any of these developments mandatory/fixed for anybody. It should all be add-ons, plug-ins, preferences, CSS. > Ideally I would like to be able to use a web aware client, like TKMOO or > CupOMud, or a java based client, like MOOTCAN, but have access to the web > based utilities of EnCore as well. It would be a rather simple hack to make the `applet' (or now: the HTML Chat) float optionally. All there is to do is write a win.open link to the applet/Chat and put it somewhere. You could then click on that and hide the main frame and just chat, and get the main frame up again when needed. > It doesn't > look good to have half the screen taken up by the description, contents and > the exits. Agree. > There is a disconnect between clicking an icon to move or view an > object and moving via text commands. Don't understand. > I use several non EnCore objects (Multi Room objects for the most part) that > do not fit into EnCore very well as they lack the integration built into the > objects included with EnCore. I've tried to change them to make the > integration work. Interesting. Would you be willing to share that code? > All IMHO of course :) Your opinion is appreciated :) > How hard would it be to make the system able to accept other clients while > still making the excellant utilities from the toolbar frame available to the > user? Other clients: like connecting with tkmoo and running Xpress parallel? That would mean hacking tkmoo to implement showDoc(). I sure don't bother even thinking of that. I think Kevin Tysdal's and my HTML Chat applet would serve the same purpose, and is already fully integrated. - Daniel From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Mon Jun 13 22:57:50 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:50 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04E75BB3 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A495DB58 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 03202-01-63 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id BD8E5343E for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.42] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:56:49 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050613222300.01cad8b8@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:58:46 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Cc: development@encore-consortium.org In-Reply-To: <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> References: <001c01c57054$74baf360$650119ac@lilith> <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1414 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Kevin, I appreciate your thoughts on enCore, and I think you are getting at something. I can't speak as well as Daniel to many of the specific, technical aspects of your observations, but I think I can share some more philosophical thoughts. I know many people who prefer the text-only MOO interface. For writing or language instruction, in particular, a textual virtual world is really nice. It's all in writing. There is also a sense of magic, or textual magic. When you operate within a text-only moo, all you have is the text and commands to navigate, communicate, and operate in the environment. It is sort of like you are walking around blind, and as a result all your other senses become sharper. The look or @examine command become like a radar ping you send out to find out what is around you. In any online interaction, there is also the desire to "embody" the virtual space and the virtual interaction. We seek ways to compensate for the disembodied state online communication is. MOOs are great for meeting this desire for "ethos" in online communication mostly because of the emote command, but also the whole virtual world seeks to make a "space" that has real connotations (at least). MOOs are great because they humanize virtual space. Text-based only MOOs may cause a greater response or desire in users to embody this virtual space because the gap is greater. Once we bring in graphics and the web there may not be as big a gap and hence not as large a drawing out for users to "embody" the space. This may explain why people feel something is lost in a web-moo environment like enCore. This is just a personal theory. I think there is something lost from the text-only moo, but there is also something gained in the enCore web-moo environment. I think one of the desires many of us have is to try to keep the text-only MOO "magic" (for the lack of a better term). I think this will improve, in part, as we populate enCore with more interactive objects. Can we make enCore a more interesting and engaging place by incorporating more objects that do interesting things. We have generics that are utilitarian, but we don't have generics that are fun and cool. Can we have event aware rooms? Can we have rooms with weather? Can we find ways to make "keys" understandable and usable to regular users? Could we choose from a set of verbs which we could apply to an object? Can we walk a dog? I'm leading in to a plug for the enCore Interactivity Project. In short, this project seek to make the virtual world interactivity of enCore more usable and accessible for users. This includes finding or programming generics and seeking ways to make it easier for users to customize these generics for their uses. The old model was built on the assumption that any moo player worth their salt would learn how to program their own generics, but I don't think we can follow that old model any more. We need to find ways to make building interactive environments easier for the regular user. If anyone is interested in taking a leadership role in working on this Interactivity Project, please let me know. I know that Barbara McManus as well as Jeffrey Schneider are very interested in it as well. Or if you have code with you could "donate," please let me know as well. Cheers, Lennie At 04:44 PM 6/13/2005, Daniel Jung wrote: >X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu >X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely >of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': >X-archive-position: 1413 >X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 >Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu >Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu >X-original-sender: jung@uib.no >Precedence: bulk >Reply-to: jung@uib.no >List-help: >List-unsubscribe: > >List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 >List-Id: >X-List-ID: >X-list: encore >X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.3.2, Antispam-Data: >2005.6.13.28 > >Hi Kevin > >Thnaks for your thoughts and for sharing them! > >Kevin Jepson wrote: >>[...] >>The combined WEB/MOO system, which is the center piece of EnCore MOOs, is an >>excellant tool for education purposes but I think it is very constraining >>for entertainment/social MOOs. > >Yes and no. Depends on what you mean by `social' and `entertainment'. >There are, in fact, a few features now which make `social behaviour' and >maybe `entertainment' easier, e.g., MyBuddies are easier set and managed >in web than in telnet. > >The development of enCore (for me) has had one goal, and that is making >it suitable for educatinoal purposes. I see clearly that this path may >have led away from the "read and feel" of earlier MOO systems. Player >movement announcements were discontinued in version 3 for example. > >>I find the screen real estate taken by the fixed frames to be excessive. > >Agree. That is why we are talking about v6 already. We don't know yet >where that might lead us, but there are suggestions to break up the main >frame idea and do exactly what you are suggesting: Connect in different >ways, with different layouts (I do not mean themes) and different >purposes. The introduction of XHMTL in version 4 may lead to an XML >extension and could then form the basis for an even more flexible >assembling of needed and optional modules. > >I have been playing with the thought to explode all frames into loose >windows. enCore/Xpress would then be displayed as, e.g., Photoshop, with >the menubar floating and hidable etc. I have to much on my mind to do >that now, but it is certainly an intriguing idea. We just have to figure >out the window/box management and not go back to popup. > >My work on v5 points clearly in that direction: All windows and frames >are completely resizable. Refreshing doesn't disconnect you any more, >the Chat and commands are preserved as logs, viewable in web (i.e., >other windows and frames than the applet, thus very customizable). > >>The web/java based utilities, like the mail system, object management etc, >>are really useful because they "float" as separate windows. > >This is not consisten with the feedback I get fro many (inexperienced) >users: They are confused by windows. They want one thing, and that's it. >Any way, I don't think we should make any of these developments >mandatory/fixed for anybody. It should all be add-ons, plug-ins, >preferences, CSS. > >>Ideally I would like to be able to use a web aware client, like TKMOO or >>CupOMud, or a java based client, like MOOTCAN, but have access to the web >>based utilities of EnCore as well. > >It would be a rather simple hack to make the `applet' (or now: the HTML >Chat) float optionally. All there is to do is write a win.open link to >the applet/Chat and put it somewhere. You could then click on that and >hide the main frame and just chat, and get the main frame up again when >needed. > >>It doesn't >>look good to have half the screen taken up by the description, contents and >>the exits. > >Agree. > >>There is a disconnect between clicking an icon to move or view an >>object and moving via text commands. > >Don't understand. > >>I use several non EnCore objects (Multi Room objects for the most part) that >>do not fit into EnCore very well as they lack the integration built into the >>objects included with EnCore. I've tried to change them to make the >>integration work. > >Interesting. Would you be willing to share that code? > >>All IMHO of course :) > >Your opinion is appreciated :) > >>How hard would it be to make the system able to accept other clients while >>still making the excellant utilities from the toolbar frame available to the >>user? > >Other clients: like connecting with tkmoo and running Xpress parallel? >That would mean hacking tkmoo to implement showDoc(). I sure don't >bother even thinking of that. I think Kevin Tysdal's and my HTML Chat >applet would serve the same purpose, and is already fully integrated. > >- Daniel > From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Tue Jun 14 01:26:38 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970815BB3 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489EA106F for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 06808-02-78 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:26:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D643392 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050614062626.HMDV25370.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:26:26 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:25:56 -0600 Message-ID: <002e01c570a9$eda73770$650119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.182 tagged_above=1 required=8 tests=AWL, BAYES_50, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Spam-Level: * X-archive-position: 1415 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Daniel Thanks for the quick response. >> There is a disconnect between clicking an icon to move or view an=20 >> object and moving via text commands. >Don't understand. By that I mean that the metaphor that the WEB is based on is that of a "book" with "pages". The only real directions are forward and back. Up, = or down, on the WEB is like going to a table of contents or index, most = people know that as "Home". =20 That metaphor works well for the WEB which is after all a hypertext. Of course the metaphor used as the basis of a MOO however, is that of = rooms in physical space. I know I don't really need to state the obvious ;) = but there are many more directions possible in three space than forward and back, up and down. Clicking a link, even if it is named something other than forward and = back, still does exactly that as far as the user is concerned and that is the source of the disconnect. I have found very few websites which have successfully used a spatial metaphor in their organization. The way the EnCore web pages are laid out they are always the same. Even if the description is complex, the exits carefully laid out and a fancy graphic picture at the top to illustrate the room, it is still a flat page and = the very PAGE like structure of the display does not speak to the spatial aspects of those descriptions. Perhaps I'm being fussy but clicking links that always look the same is = not the equivalent of "going North towards the great bronze fountain in the courtyard" :) >> I use several non EnCore objects (Multi Room objects for the most=20 >> part) that do not fit into EnCore very well as they lack the=20 >> integration built into the objects included with EnCore. I've tried=20 >> to change them to make the integration work. >Interesting. Would you be willing to share that code? Of course, they are modifictaions of one of the generic Multi Rooms from Lambda I believe. I'm afraid I don't remember where I lifted the code from originally, it = may have been in one of the now defunct generic object repositories. Here is the blurb from the Help on the base object. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Generic_Multiroom (#150): ---- The mandate of #37796, a previous generic multiroom, was to expand on = the concept of details, this roomtype is what is called a metaroom, one = object that has been programmed to simulate the $room and $exit system. =20 There are other multirooms, this one features interactivity between simulated rooms and a convenient environment for building. If you = wanted to give this room one of those loaded generic names it might go something = like "Generic Secure Seated Detailed Exterior Integrating Metaroom with Megafeatures". 8+) =20 Features: =20 * Notion of being able to see what is ahead of you in another = location in straight lines and 'hear' what is going on in the locations around = you. This is accomplished by a concept of transparent and sound permeable = exits. There is a maximum range of 5 rooms in a straight line for sight and a radius of 3 rooms around your present location for sound. =20 * Exits that can be doors and that have locking. You can set special = flags on each exit to tell the multiroom that it is a door and you have the spectrum of $exit messages to set as well. Exits are integrating via look_msg.=20 =20 * Support for linking with other roomtypes using exits from any = location within the multiroom. With the addition of properties like look_msg and transparency you can make a seamless transition from the multiroom to = other roomtypes. =20 * Details: Every sub-room in the multiroom can have it's own details. = These details are shown when you look at something in the room that matches = the detail name. =20 * Seats: Details can be seats, allowing you to sit down or lie on top = of a detail, with the appropriate room description and announced messages. Looking at a detail that is a seat will also display who is = sitting/lying on that seat. In addition, the format of the original command line is = preserved for message display; You type lie on bed and it will say you are lying = on the bed, say lie in bed it will say you are lying in the bed. "a", "an", "the" are checked for and supplied for you. =20 * Surfaces: Any detail that you can sit/lie apon is considered a = surface and you may place objects on that surface. Any object associated with a surface will be hidden from view unless the object is "on" the surface = as opposed to behind it or under it. For example if you 'put a key under a welcome mat' then the key will be invisible unless you 'look under the welcome mat', 'look at welcome mat' will just show the mat's = description. =20 * Virtual containers: a detail may also be a container. If the detail = is specified as not being sittable or something you can lie on and there is only one of them then you will be asked if you can open and close it, = this means the detail will be a container. You can get/put things from detail containers, open and close them. If a container is open then it's = contents are integrated into the room description. And more... =20 * Security: A simple global security is available for those who wish = it. =20 * Integration: any object within the multirom with a look_msg property = will be integrated into the room description of its location. =20 * Exterior Room: You can enter and exit this room. You can have an = exterior description and title as well as custom messages for entering and = exiting. The concept of transparency has been used here as well. =20 I feel that my version of a metaroom is fairly robust and stable and = that just about all of the bugs have been worked out. It is still subject to fine-tuning and enhancements however as the suggestions from users come = in. There are several outstanding incompatibities in the design of metarooms = in general with regard to non-room verbs, hopefully someone will come up = with a good solution to them.=20 =20 Enjoy! =20 Tarod =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Needless to say the exit and room structure is incompatable with the = EnCore WEB generation :( I will submit the original code to the Barn so others can play with it. I really like the direction that EnCore is moving so please don't take = my comments as a critique, they are more like a philisophical difference :) Keep up the good work. Ciao KJ --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005 =20 From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Tue Jun 14 02:06:33 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:06:33 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2901B5BB3 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:06:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3301087 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:06:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 11109-01-29 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:06:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8283462 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:06:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050614070619.KMHM4722.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:06:19 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Cc: Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:05:48 -0600 Message-ID: <002f01c570af$7e863700$650119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050613222300.01cad8b8@accdvm.accd.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1416 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Lennie You described the process of using a text based MOO very well. I agree there is magic to the way that plain words can invoke a sense of place. Of course anyone who has read "Lord of the Rings" knows that :) Your comments on interactivity struck a chord with me: >I think there is something lost from the text-only moo, but there is = also=20 >something gained in the enCore web-moo environment. I think one of the = >desires many of us have is to try to keep the text-only MOO "magic" = (for=20 >the lack of a better term). I think this will improve, in part, as we=20 >populate enCore with more interactive objects. Can we make enCore a = more=20 >interesting and engaging place by incorporating more objects that do=20 >interesting things. We have generics that are utilitarian, but we = don't=20 >have generics that are fun and cool. Can we have event aware rooms? = Can=20 >we have rooms with weather? Can we find ways to make "keys" = understandable >and usable to regular users? Could we choose from a set of verbs which = we=20 >could apply to an object? Can we walk a dog? All of which are almost trivial (once the code exists, which is of = course non-trivial) on a text based MOO, they are simply strings of text = afterall. They are anything but trivial if they must be transferred to a more graphical rich display system. The WEB display in EnCore is almost being dragged along with the real action which is on the text side, IMHO. I have found that even my 13 year old daughter can design her space, describe it and make it "do stuff" through text. She is a pretty good = web page writer (aren't they all now days) but she would have a hard time duplicating her "den" with graphics. I'm a lousy graphics guy so my countryside is pretty boring in pictures, = the words are considerably richer, if I do say so myself :) Making the WEB side "do interesting things" is going to be tough I = think. Already the pages seem static even when the site is a busy one, like = Pronoun MOO was while you were presenting.=20 I have a really good, if simple, example in my MOO, a BEER MUG which is based on the cannonical "Generic Consumable". As I take a swig from the = mug it's description changes to reflect how much beer is left, the others in = the room "see" me drink it and I get virtually refreshed :) While all that = is happening, NOTHING has changed on the WEB side because I'm holding the = mug, so no one can "see" it, and there is no indication that anything has happened. Trying to get the WEB side to reflect the rich active imagery = of the text side will be quite the project. Ciao KJ =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005 =20 From egoff@mindspring.com Tue Jun 14 15:58:27 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:58:28 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66B75C9E for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:58:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCCB10CC for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:58:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24587-01-32 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:58:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A40342C for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:57:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [69.250.78.202] (helo=master) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DiITv-0005lo-Aa; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:57:59 -0400 From: "Edward Goff" To: Cc: Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:56:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <002f01c570af$7e863700$650119ac@lilith> X-ELNK-Trace: 23f5b2bec61e6078d4c20f6b8d69d88831f964467e38cbea26bab11c74bc0e2d4f5b7ba6a1f9e435350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.250.78.202 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1417 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: egoff@mindspring.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: egoff@mindspring.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore You my friend (or friends as the case maybe) have hit upon a major stumbling block I've considered for years. I LOVE my RPG moo. I've run one off and one for almost twelve years now. While jpg's, png, ect are good for "showing" a static image. The ability to convey action, drama, GUI level gaming does one of two things. Restores to the "hack-n-slash" of UO or we find ourselves wishing for VR5. In that belief I have spent A LOT of time reading, learning, and coming up with the same answer. So I applaud those who wish to head this direction and any help I can give I will. Edward Goff -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On Behalf Of Kevin Jepson Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 3:06 AM To: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu; encore@utdallas.edu Cc: development@encore-consortium.org Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Hi Lennie You described the process of using a text based MOO very well. I agree there is magic to the way that plain words can invoke a sense of place. Of course anyone who has read "Lord of the Rings" knows that :) Your comments on interactivity struck a chord with me: >I think there is something lost from the text-only moo, but there is also >something gained in the enCore web-moo environment. I think one of the >desires many of us have is to try to keep the text-only MOO "magic" (for >the lack of a better term). I think this will improve, in part, as we >populate enCore with more interactive objects. Can we make enCore a more >interesting and engaging place by incorporating more objects that do >interesting things. We have generics that are utilitarian, but we don't >have generics that are fun and cool. Can we have event aware rooms? Can >we have rooms with weather? Can we find ways to make "keys" understandable >and usable to regular users? Could we choose from a set of verbs which we >could apply to an object? Can we walk a dog? All of which are almost trivial (once the code exists, which is of course non-trivial) on a text based MOO, they are simply strings of text afterall. They are anything but trivial if they must be transferred to a more graphical rich display system. The WEB display in EnCore is almost being dragged along with the real action which is on the text side, IMHO. I have found that even my 13 year old daughter can design her space, describe it and make it "do stuff" through text. She is a pretty good web page writer (aren't they all now days) but she would have a hard time duplicating her "den" with graphics. I'm a lousy graphics guy so my countryside is pretty boring in pictures, the words are considerably richer, if I do say so myself :) Making the WEB side "do interesting things" is going to be tough I think. Already the pages seem static even when the site is a busy one, like Pronoun MOO was while you were presenting. I have a really good, if simple, example in my MOO, a BEER MUG which is based on the cannonical "Generic Consumable". As I take a swig from the mug it's description changes to reflect how much beer is left, the others in the room "see" me drink it and I get virtually refreshed :) While all that is happening, NOTHING has changed on the WEB side because I'm holding the mug, so no one can "see" it, and there is no indication that anything has happened. Trying to get the WEB side to reflect the rich active imagery of the text side will be quite the project. Ciao KJ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005 From jung@uib.no Tue Jun 14 19:26:42 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A055BAD for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC3AD74 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 09325-02-65 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18D83451 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DiLjl-0004Au-Vo; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:26:34 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DiLjl-0007aO-Nf; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:26:33 +0200 Message-ID: <42AF74BB.8020108@uib.no> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:22:19 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... References: <002f01c570af$7e863700$650119ac@lilith> In-Reply-To: <002f01c570af$7e863700$650119ac@lilith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: 64ea33a4f8c1df430fc570d039c6d093 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1418 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Kevin Jepson wrote: > I have a really good, if simple, example in my MOO, a BEER MUG which is > based on the cannonical "Generic Consumable". As I take a swig from the mug > it's description changes to reflect how much beer is left, the others in the > room "see" me drink it and I get virtually refreshed :) While all that is > happening, NOTHING has changed on the WEB side because I'm holding the mug, > so no one can "see" it, and there is no indication that anything has > happened. Trying to get the WEB side to reflect the rich active imagery of > the text side will be quite the project. There are a few items that react though. The recorder is now showing graphically if it tapes the conversation, the web slide projector shows text or other web resources. But you are right: I really would like to see more beer mugs on the WEB. Then again, can WEB really compete with the "where text is the landscape" approach and the many mental processes activated when decoding a written/spatial text? Is it really right to force the dynamic text onto the (here:) static WEB? Isn't that doomed to fail? Shouldn't we rather say: the MOO can be both, let's make the best of the one and the best of the other, instead of making a half-baked combination of the two? I don't know. A MOO project I am involved in will have "dynamic" rooms: There is a set of pictures: "View from a room" (office) through a window; on the outside, there is summer/winter/noon/night etc. These pics are connected to a type of room and inserted as part of the .description. Time is called/parsed, and the pictures are changed accordingly: Dusk/dawn, daytime, seasons will be different. I don't know if that will work (I mean the "feeling", not the coding), but it will be interesting how the users will respond. - Daniel From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Jun 15 01:22:59 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:23:00 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4855BAD for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:22:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB24B32 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:22:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23622-02-79 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:22:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8D43471 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:21:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050615062131.FWEB1577.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:21:31 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:21:25 -0600 Message-ID: <003201c57172$770628f0$650119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <42AF74BB.8020108@uib.no> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1419 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Daniel >Then again, can WEB really compete with the "where text is the=20 >landscape" approach and the many mental processes activated when=20 >decoding a written/spatial text? Is it really right to force the = dynamic=20 >text onto the (here:) static WEB? Isn't that doomed to fail? Shouldn't=20 >we rather say: the MOO can be both, let's make the best of the one and=20 >the best of the other, instead of making a half-baked combination of = the=20 >two? I don't know. I think that process really is doomed to fail actually. The end point = would be something that was neither as good as standalone systems like MMORPGs = nor as rich as pure text MOOs. I agree that MOO can certainly do both, it's a matter of emphasis = really. EnCore currently "seems" to emphasize the WEB side over the MOO side. Since I've been unable to get EnCore 4 to work with FireFox :( , my preferred browser, I've set up a page that has two frames, a MOOTCAN = java frame and a WEB frame. When someone Views or Displays an object, it's associated web page is shown in the WEB frame. A poor man's EnCore essentially :) The advantage to this, to me at least is that all = navigation is done via the text and the WEB frame is used for display only and can = be ignored. My most common use of that frame at the moment is Book objects that when "opened" and "read" display their text, usually an html document. These doucuments can be local, ie on my server, or off in the WEB somewhere. Because the WEB frame is not generated by the MOO the resulting WEB navigation from the displayed page is normal. =20 Being able to add the Utilities available on the EnCore toolbar to that setup would probably be optimal to me at least. >A MOO project I am involved in will have "dynamic" rooms: There is a = set=20 >of pictures: "View from a room" (office) through a window; on the=20 >outside, there is summer/winter/noon/night etc. These pics are = connected=20 >to a type of room and inserted as part of the .description. Time is=20 >called/parsed, and the pictures are changed accordingly: Dusk/dawn,=20 >daytime, seasons will be different. I don't know if that will work (I=20 >mean the "feeling", not the coding), but it will be interesting how the = >Users will respond. Sounds like that would be a very interesting room! I have experimented with a similar setup in the text side by modifying a room to include a sense of time. When a user "looks" the look_self verb checks the time and then changes the description accordingly. This non-forking way of adjusting the description can also work for setting = the weather. This is much easier on the server as no scheduled tasks need to = be kept synchronized. I stole that idea from the Generic Outdoor Room at = TECFA :) Interestingly if this room sets a message with the weather, any room "inside" this one can know what the weather is "outside" by calling the message. =20 There is an object included in the RPG core that does just that. It is a container object called "realm". Rooms can be moved there from #-1 = (Limbo) and then they have access to weather and time of day messages to use in their descriptions. With the inheritance scheme of text based MOO code, making a room that behaved like you are describing would be pretty = simple to setup.=20 In fact with my poor man's EnCore setup the view from the windows could = be displayed automatically in the WEB frame by hacking look_self. A much = easier approach than the complex page generation that EnCore needs to make the = WEB pages now, IMHO. In my attempts to make the Multi Rooms EnCore compatible I got lost following the course of the code that generates the WEB frame. I = couldn't figure out how to get into the process in a way that would allow me to internalize (into the Multi Room itself) the html generating code. It is not simply a matter of hacking on _html apparently :( =20 Ciao KJ --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.2 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 =20 From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Jun 15 07:25:34 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:34 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F27A5BAD for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C891127D for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15290-01-54 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id CAF6F3442 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.27] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:24:37 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050615071854.01c23f98@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:26:38 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Usability Report release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1420 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Lennie waves I've just released a draft version of the usability test to the folks signed up on the development list for the enCore Consortium. I encourage you if you are interested in joining in on a discussion of these results to join this list http://www.encore-consortium.org/Communication.htm . I don't mean to exclude anyone from this discussion, but I also don't want to clutter lot of folks email boxes with a discussion they may not want to hear about. When the report is "officially" complete, I will definitely release it publicly. In the meantime, though, the draft report hopefully will provide good feedback for the development process of enCore v5 (hence releasing it to the development list). If you are just interested in seeing the draft report, please let me know and I'll send it to you. Yours, Lennie From blast@baymoo.org Wed Jun 15 20:42:49 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B725BAD for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA9D13D6 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29925-02-35 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Greylist: delayed 1516 seconds by postgrey-1.21 at mx2; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:44 CDT Received: from mail.ncircle.com (mail.ncircle.com [64.84.9.150]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69398342C for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:42:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [192.168.1.222] (dhcp-vpn-5-100.ncircle.com [192.168.5.100]) by mail.ncircle.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5G1GxxD083016; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blast@baymoo.org) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:16:58 -0700 Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... From: "Timothy D. Keanini" To: , Daniel Jung , "encore@utdallas.edu" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003201c57172$770628f0$650119ac@lilith> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1421 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: blast@baymoo.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: blast@baymoo.org List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hello all, first allow me a quick intro. I have been lurking on this list since Jan 2002 and this is my very first posting. I am the author of BayMOO which has been in operation since Oct 1993 and my character is 'blast'. It has been a very long time since I have seen this type of debate. It is simply wonderful. Back in the early 90's, this type of discussion was all over the newsgroups and mailing lists. I started my computer career at Broderbund Software designing games and many people smarter than I came to the same conclusion which is that all types of displays are valid transports of information -- each one unique to its effectiveness at communicating certain types of information. 1d, 2d, 3d, text, graphs, charts, etc.etc. for the visuals and lets not forget the auditory displays like environmental, music, speech, etc. it was a real art to get in to the persons subconscious with subtle audio cues but I digress. Back in the early nineties when Multi-Media was the big thing, displays were just used because the technology could do it. This drove me absolutely nuts. Creating an engaging immersive environment is a craft and the market was flooded with designers that just made everything look like an vendor add for the technology. I earned the reputation at meetings as being the dude who thinks text will remain the only way to create user-authored-content-rich networked environments and I was happy to wear the badge. With Occam's razor in hand, I challenged people to think through the problem set -- "give me one good reason why this type of information needs to be in a fully rendered high polygon 3d environment". Example: Text is very inefficient in displaying map data which is why for years we have been drawing maps to show the 'you are here' in context to the whole for the purpose of orientation but then when you want to state a procedure in getting from one place to another, text does a fine job as a display. The point being made here about the metaphors being in conflict is very real but not impossible to overcome. It is less about the metaphor and more about the most effective way to communicate the information. It is ironic to think that Pavel Curtis, the godfather of MOO, and evangelist of technologies that rendered a "sense of place" went on to create a web-browser based company called Placeware that defined the web-conferencing market and later got purchased by Microsoft. The "sense of place" hero was not the web browser but had more to do with the auditory display of the conference call bridge. :-) I sure many on the list have been in the same situation and I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. My point simply is the fact that when designing these systems, two principles have remained true through out the years: - always use the appropriate display technology to communicate If your system cannot afford that particular display, then design within your constraints. Always be able to justify why you needed to use one display over the other and never fall victim to using the technology just because it is available. :-) (I also have discovered over the years that the designer must author two sets of information streams working in concert with each other: one accessing the conscious and the other the unconscious.) - never disrupt the "Suspension of Disbelief". When you have a user completely engaged in your world, never remind them that they are just sitting at a computer. :-) Thank you for a great mailing list and most of all, a wonderful group of thinkers. --blast On 6/14/05 11:21 PM, "Kevin Jepson" wrote: > > Hi Daniel > >> Then again, can WEB really compete with the "where text is the >> landscape" approach and the many mental processes activated when >> decoding a written/spatial text? Is it really right to force the dynamic >> text onto the (here:) static WEB? Isn't that doomed to fail? Shouldn't >> we rather say: the MOO can be both, let's make the best of the one and >> the best of the other, instead of making a half-baked combination of the >> two? I don't know. > > I think that process really is doomed to fail actually. The end point would > be something that was neither as good as standalone systems like MMORPGs nor > as rich as pure text MOOs. > > I agree that MOO can certainly do both, it's a matter of emphasis really. > EnCore currently "seems" to emphasize the WEB side over the MOO side. > > Since I've been unable to get EnCore 4 to work with FireFox :( , my > preferred browser, I've set up a page that has two frames, a MOOTCAN java > frame and a WEB frame. When someone Views or Displays an object, it's > associated web page is shown in the WEB frame. A poor man's EnCore > essentially :) The advantage to this, to me at least is that all navigation > is done via the text and the WEB frame is used for display only and can be > ignored. > > My most common use of that frame at the moment is Book objects that when > "opened" and "read" display their text, usually an html document. These > doucuments can be local, ie on my server, or off in the WEB somewhere. > Because the WEB frame is not generated by the MOO the resulting WEB > navigation from the displayed page is normal. > > Being able to add the Utilities available on the EnCore toolbar to that > setup would probably be optimal to me at least. > >> A MOO project I am involved in will have "dynamic" rooms: There is a set >> of pictures: "View from a room" (office) through a window; on the >> outside, there is summer/winter/noon/night etc. These pics are connected >> to a type of room and inserted as part of the .description. Time is >> called/parsed, and the pictures are changed accordingly: Dusk/dawn, >> daytime, seasons will be different. I don't know if that will work (I >> mean the "feeling", not the coding), but it will be interesting how the >> Users will respond. > > Sounds like that would be a very interesting room! > > I have experimented with a similar setup in the text side by modifying a > room to include a sense of time. When a user "looks" the look_self verb > checks the time and then changes the description accordingly. This > non-forking way of adjusting the description can also work for setting the > weather. This is much easier on the server as no scheduled tasks need to be > kept synchronized. I stole that idea from the Generic Outdoor Room at TECFA > :) > > Interestingly if this room sets a message with the weather, any room > "inside" this one can know what the weather is "outside" by calling the > message. > > There is an object included in the RPG core that does just that. It is a > container object called "realm". Rooms can be moved there from #-1 (Limbo) > and then they have access to weather and time of day messages to use in > their descriptions. With the inheritance scheme of text based MOO code, > making a room that behaved like you are describing would be pretty simple to > setup. > > In fact with my poor man's EnCore setup the view from the windows could be > displayed automatically in the WEB frame by hacking look_self. A much easier > approach than the complex page generation that EnCore needs to make the WEB > pages now, IMHO. > > In my attempts to make the Multi Rooms EnCore compatible I got lost > following the course of the code that generates the WEB frame. I couldn't > figure out how to get into the process in a way that would allow me to > internalize (into the Multi Room itself) the html generating code. > > It is not simply a matter of hacking on _html apparently :( > > Ciao > KJ -- Timothy D. Keanini From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Jun 15 21:22:22 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199C45BAD for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FCC13DF for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29958-02-46 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF883456 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050616022203.DWEH24732.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:22:03 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , "'Daniel Jung'" Subject: [encore] EnCore Web page generation documention? Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:22:00 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c5721a$2dc8d5e0$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C571E7.E32E65E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.141 tagged_above=1 required=8 tests=AWL, BAYES_50, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY, HTML_TEXT_AFTER_HTML X-Spam-Level: * X-archive-position: 1422 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C571E7.E32E65E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel Do you have any documentation that shows the process the EnCore code = uses to generate the WEB pages? I have tried to follow the process by reading the verbs and tracking the calls but I can't keep it straight. How does that process mesh with the Object Oriented nature of the MOO = code itself? I'm amazed at the work that has gone into making the old MOO code system generate polished looking WEB pages.=20 The more I look at it the more impressed I become :) Now if I could follow it better I might be able to get my custom objects = to work better. Ciao KJ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. =20 An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. PHONE: (403) 875-8372 Email: kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C571E7.E32E65E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Daniel
Do you = have any=20 documentation that shows the process the EnCore code uses to generate = the WEB=20 pages?
I have = tried to=20 follow the process by reading the verbs and tracking the calls but I = can't keep=20 it straight.
How = does that=20 process mesh with the Object Oriented nature of the MOO code=20 itself?
I'm = amazed at the=20 work that has gone into making the old MOO code system generate polished = looking=20 WEB pages.
The = more I look at=20 it the more impressed I become :)
Now if = I could=20 follow it better I might be able to get my custom objects to work=20 better.
Ciao
KJ
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Kevin Jepson=20 R.E.T.
President
4K Consulting=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;        
An't=20 nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath.

PHONE: (403) = 875-8372
Email:=20 kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D

 =20
 

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: = 14/06/2005

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C571E7.E32E65E0-- From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Wed Jun 15 23:57:24 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:57:25 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B1B5BAD for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:57:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6720814FB for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:57:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08203-02-67 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:57:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B00F3442 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:57:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050616045720.ZSRO14453.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:57:20 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: "'Timothy D. Keanini'" , Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:57:15 -0600 Message-ID: <001a01c5722f$ddeaf740$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.16 tagged_above=1 required=8 tests=AWL, BAYES_50, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Spam-Level: * X-archive-position: 1423 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Timothy Have you noticed a change in your users on BayMOO as the Tech has advanced elsewhere on the Net? Does BayMOO do anything with WEB pages generated from inside? Have you considered changing from strictly text based to WEB integration? I definitely agree with your comments about disrupting the "Suspension of Disbelief". Ciao KJ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Thu Jun 16 07:59:58 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD685BAD for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B98715EF for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29798-02-83 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:59:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 901E9342C for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:59:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.57] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:58:56 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616072735.01cfd050@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:00:57 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... In-Reply-To: References: <003201c57172$770628f0$650119ac@lilith> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1424 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Great post Timothy (-blast) and thanks for joining in the conversation. I came to MOOs late (1999) and focused almost immediately on enCore, so I represent this new kind of MOO user who didn't come to MOOs from text-based gaming but used MOO for educational purposes exclusively. I've been walking about thinking about Kevin's earlier post, so I'm going to share some general thoughts on his and your post too. I hear what Kevin is saying about the "fiction" perhaps being stronger within a text-based MOO. The Graphical Interface and the overall fiction (or metaphor) of the MOO need to work together, and in many cases they don't work that well together in enCore. I like what Tim says about how text, graphical, and auditory elements can all work together. I really like this line that you said: "The point being made here about the metaphors being in conflict is very real but not impossible to overcome. It is less about the metaphor and more about the most effective way to communicate the information." That gives me hope for enCore. I think even an enCore MOO has a "sense of place" that distinguishes it from other kinds of web applications. I use an enCore MOO to take a graduate class at Texas Tech, and even though the current teacher I have has done nothing to make the classroom a "place," I still have a sense of "going to class" when I log in and we meet. I don't have the same sense when I log in to our WebCT part of the class. I think MOOs like Lingua MOO and Dene's Nouspace do a great job of creating an environment, and it is mostly done with incredible graphics (and Dene uses sound). I think a lot of it also has to do with the "presence" of others in a MOO. You see them. You can talk to them. And you are not inside a card board box chat room. So I guess what I am taking from your post is that the metaphor is good--it is how we communicate the metaphor that takes the most careful crafting. The other thing I have thought before is how there seemed to be a burst of Educational MOOs (most are text-based) in the late 90s, but how most all of them are closed now. I recommend you skim this list of Educational MOOs that were operating in 2002--hardly any are still going. Rachel's Super MOO List--Educational MOOs (last updated 2002) http://moolist.yeehaw.net/edu.html It seems like the use of text-based MOOs has fallen precipitously (I would say even enCore MOO use has dropped significantly) because the command line operation of computer applications for the general user has gone along with WordStar and DOS. After reading some of Kevin's posts, I had the thought that a graphical MOO like enCore could never measure up to the text-based experience. Why try? I think the answer is right there in Rachel's List. There is a great need for a program that offers the kind of interactivity and creativity possible in MOO, and it seems to me that we must help MOO move into the web environment or it will go the way of the dinosaurs. Lennie At 08:16 PM 6/15/2005, you wrote: >Hello all, first allow me a quick intro. I have been lurking on this list >since Jan 2002 and this is my very first posting. I am the author of BayMOO >which has been in operation since Oct 1993 and my character is 'blast'. > >It has been a very long time since I have seen this type of debate. It is >simply wonderful. Back in the early 90's, this type of discussion was all >over the newsgroups and mailing lists. > >I started my computer career at Broderbund Software designing games and many >people smarter than I came to the same conclusion which is that all types of >displays are valid transports of information -- each one unique to its >effectiveness at communicating certain types of information. >1d, 2d, 3d, text, graphs, charts, etc.etc. for the visuals and lets not >forget the auditory displays like environmental, music, speech, etc. it was >a real art to get in to the persons subconscious with subtle audio cues but >I digress. > >Back in the early nineties when Multi-Media was the big thing, displays were >just used because the technology could do it. This drove me absolutely >nuts. Creating an engaging immersive environment is a craft and the market >was flooded with designers that just made everything look like an vendor add >for the technology. I earned the reputation at meetings as being the dude >who thinks text will remain the only way to create >user-authored-content-rich networked environments and I was happy to wear >the badge. With Occam's razor in hand, I challenged people to think through >the problem set -- "give me one good reason why this type of information >needs to be in a fully rendered high polygon 3d environment". Example: Text >is very inefficient in displaying map data which is why for years we have >been drawing maps to show the 'you are here' in context to the whole for the >purpose of orientation but then when you want to state a procedure in >getting from one place to another, text does a fine job as a display. > >The point being made here about the metaphors being in conflict is very real >but not impossible to overcome. It is less about the metaphor and more >about the most effective way to communicate the information. It is ironic >to think that Pavel Curtis, the godfather of MOO, and evangelist of >technologies that rendered a "sense of place" went on to create a >web-browser based company called Placeware that defined the web-conferencing >market and later got purchased by Microsoft. The "sense of place" hero was >not the web browser but had more to do with the auditory display of the >conference call bridge. :-) > >I sure many on the list have been in the same situation and I don't want to >insult anyone's intelligence. My point simply is the fact that when >designing these systems, two principles have remained true through out the >years: >- always use the appropriate display technology to communicate >If your system cannot afford that particular display, then design within >your constraints. Always be able to justify why you needed to use one >display over the other and never fall victim to using the technology just >because it is available. :-) (I also have discovered over the years that >the designer must author two sets of information streams working in concert >with each other: one accessing the conscious and the other the unconscious.) >- never disrupt the "Suspension of Disbelief". When you have a user >completely engaged in your world, never remind them that they are just >sitting at a computer. :-) > >Thank you for a great mailing list and most of all, a wonderful group of >thinkers. > >--blast > >On 6/14/05 11:21 PM, "Kevin Jepson" wrote: > > > > > Hi Daniel > > > >> Then again, can WEB really compete with the "where text is the > >> landscape" approach and the many mental processes activated when > >> decoding a written/spatial text? Is it really right to force the dynamic > >> text onto the (here:) static WEB? Isn't that doomed to fail? Shouldn't > >> we rather say: the MOO can be both, let's make the best of the one and > >> the best of the other, instead of making a half-baked combination of the > >> two? I don't know. > > > > I think that process really is doomed to fail actually. The end point would > > be something that was neither as good as standalone systems like > MMORPGs nor > > as rich as pure text MOOs. > > > > I agree that MOO can certainly do both, it's a matter of emphasis really. > > EnCore currently "seems" to emphasize the WEB side over the MOO side. > > > > Since I've been unable to get EnCore 4 to work with FireFox :( , my > > preferred browser, I've set up a page that has two frames, a MOOTCAN java > > frame and a WEB frame. When someone Views or Displays an object, it's > > associated web page is shown in the WEB frame. A poor man's EnCore > > essentially :) The advantage to this, to me at least is that all navigation > > is done via the text and the WEB frame is used for display only and can be > > ignored. > > > > My most common use of that frame at the moment is Book objects that when > > "opened" and "read" display their text, usually an html document. These > > doucuments can be local, ie on my server, or off in the WEB somewhere. > > Because the WEB frame is not generated by the MOO the resulting WEB > > navigation from the displayed page is normal. > > > > Being able to add the Utilities available on the EnCore toolbar to that > > setup would probably be optimal to me at least. > > > >> A MOO project I am involved in will have "dynamic" rooms: There is a set > >> of pictures: "View from a room" (office) through a window; on the > >> outside, there is summer/winter/noon/night etc. These pics are connected > >> to a type of room and inserted as part of the .description. Time is > >> called/parsed, and the pictures are changed accordingly: Dusk/dawn, > >> daytime, seasons will be different. I don't know if that will work (I > >> mean the "feeling", not the coding), but it will be interesting how the > >> Users will respond. > > > > Sounds like that would be a very interesting room! > > > > I have experimented with a similar setup in the text side by modifying a > > room to include a sense of time. When a user "looks" the look_self verb > > checks the time and then changes the description accordingly. This > > non-forking way of adjusting the description can also work for setting the > > weather. This is much easier on the server as no scheduled tasks need to be > > kept synchronized. I stole that idea from the Generic Outdoor Room at TECFA > > :) > > > > Interestingly if this room sets a message with the weather, any room > > "inside" this one can know what the weather is "outside" by calling the > > message. > > > > There is an object included in the RPG core that does just that. It is a > > container object called "realm". Rooms can be moved there from #-1 (Limbo) > > and then they have access to weather and time of day messages to use in > > their descriptions. With the inheritance scheme of text based MOO code, > > making a room that behaved like you are describing would be pretty > simple to > > setup. > > > > In fact with my poor man's EnCore setup the view from the windows could be > > displayed automatically in the WEB frame by hacking look_self. A much > easier > > approach than the complex page generation that EnCore needs to make the WEB > > pages now, IMHO. > > > > In my attempts to make the Multi Rooms EnCore compatible I got lost > > following the course of the code that generates the WEB frame. I couldn't > > figure out how to get into the process in a way that would allow me to > > internalize (into the Multi Room itself) the html generating code. > > > > It is not simply a matter of hacking on _html apparently :( > > > > Ciao > > KJ > >-- >Timothy D. Keanini From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Thu Jun 16 14:29:41 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:41 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6871A5BAD for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCB316CA for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 16748-01-37 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE317342C for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050616192935.XVIE24793.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:29:35 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , Subject: [encore] Re: Some thoughts on web integration, rather long I'm afraid... Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:29:33 -0600 Message-ID: <000501c572a9$b9d0b730$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616072735.01cfd050@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1425 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Lennie (and other list members) WRT the list of "Educational MOOs" and how many are no longer operating, = I think that has more to do with the nature of anything "Educational" than = the technology. Timothy could probably explain this better but from my perspective any MOO that is setup to be "used" by others, rather than actively created "by" others, will suffer the moment the originators retire/quit/leave for greener pastures. MOOs (like mine) which are essentially private domains, exist because of = the work a select few put into it. If the USERS only move through, as part = of a course say, they do not invest anything in the continued existence of = the structure.=20 BayMOO, or Edward's RPG MOOs, continue to exist because they supply something the users want. So for that matter does Everquest :) The trick = to my mind is to separate the "Educational" and "Entertainment" views of = how MOOs are used. EnCore development to date has been driven by the needs of educational systems, and there is nothing wrong with that of course. Consequently = some of the key aspects of what makes a MOO attractive to those who would = like to participate in a virtual world, i.e. social interaction and = entertainment, have been passed over. Hence my comments about the metaphors and = Timothy's "suspension of disbelief". I think Encore can do both quite well really, it's a simple matter of recognizing the different approaches that educational users, read = students and teachers, take compared to gamers, i.e. citizens of an online world. Two things immediately come to mind that would allow EnCore to fit both worlds. 1) The HTML Chat feature of Version 5 The new chat client is smooth, does not stand out from the rest of the system as somehow "primitive", like the MOOTCAN client does, and allows modern things like smilies and fonts etc. These things are expected by online users these days. This addition will go a long way to making the disconnect between the text side and the web side less obvious. It = doesn't remove it though. 2) Make the WEB side "optional", that is make the key navigation system = be the Text side with the option to use the "classic EnCore" interface for educational systems. That way all the rich illusions that the text side = can generate need not be disrupted by clicking stuff or displays that do not represent the world adequately. =20 A question I would like to have asked the useability testers would have been: "How do you view the utilities as fitting into the world of the MOO?" Speaking for myself I don't find the Mail client or the other utilities disruptive at all. The reason is that they are only used for specific = tasks that one is prepared to exit the world for anyway. They don't remind you constantly that you are "sitting at a computer" as Timothy said.=20 Anybody who has tried to keep up with MOOmail lists in a classic MOO, or tried to program any reasonably complex object using the built in = editor, knows what a hassle that is. These new utilities actually enhance the useability of the MOO rather than detract from it. I use TKMOO for all my development because the editor and object = browser, via the MACMOOSE utilities, are very easy to use. The editor actually = color codes the MOO codes and detects missing brackets etc. I experimented = with coding a MCP Email client for TKMOO but got lost in the codes :( Another aspect to consider is the expertise necessary to build these = worlds. While MOO code is not something most users would even want to play with, = the technical requirements to run a classic MOO and connect to it are very small. That is a great benefit going forward since everything these days = is bloated with graphics and wierd software dependancies.=20 What's more, creating the world using generics and descriptions, can be = done by anybody, in any language, without the need to be a graphic artist or design guru. =20 I certainly don't think that EnCore is a dead end, or that MOO is either = for that matter. I think there is a great opportunity to keep online = communities going strong. =20 We need to follow the UNIX approach, IMHO, ie give people the tools to = make better systems themselves. Ciao KJ --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 =20 From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Thu Jun 16 15:09:56 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137595BAD for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4681569 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 17178-02-88 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADB0342E for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050616200950.PQHW26924.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@lilith> for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:09:50 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: Subject: [encore] An interesting paper on Virtual Communities Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:09:47 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c572af$58d53c20$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.112 tagged_above=1 required=8 tests=AWL, BAYES_50, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Spam-Level: * X-archive-position: 1426 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Gang This is a very interesting paper. Written in 2001. Enjoy KJ Living Inside the (Operating) System: Community in Virtual Reality (Draft) by John Unsworth http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/Virtual.Community.html ======================================================= Kevin Jepson R.E.T. President 4K Consulting Inc. An't nanum hearm deth, doth hwaet ye willath. Email: kevijeps_nospam_@telusplanet.net ======================================================= -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 From jung@uib.no Mon Jun 20 16:19:32 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918965BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5306ADA8 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 18038-02-44 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A99A3460 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DkTfp-0001eE-IN; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:19:18 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DkTfp-0002kC-BF; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:19:17 +0200 Message-ID: <42B731E0.20806@uib.no> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:15:12 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu, "Discussion related to the MOO platform." Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: 9c0da554ddffcdd23931094e8f749c4b http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1427 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server and made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http (web) port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we wouldn't have the hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? Am I way off the beam here? - Daniel From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Mon Jun 20 16:34:57 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:34:57 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23885BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:34:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34B8D09 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:34:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 19797-02-12 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:34:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159F4343E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:34:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050620213442.SLWE12955.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:34:42 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: , , "'Discussion related to the MOO platform.'" Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:34:19 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c575df$d1427f00$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <42B731E0.20806@uib.no> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1428 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Daniel I think you would still have a firewall hasse because by default any firewall woorth it's salt will block both of those ports. So opening port 80 and port 23 takes the same amount of time as opening custom ports. I would suggest that you not use the default ports, ie 80 and 23, = because they "attract" too much attention from potential bad guys out on the = net. I don't understand what you mean about having to "to dislocate all = graphics=20 etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http = port would be used by the MOO." The EnCore webserver is not fetching = them now via port 80 (is it?!?). Ciao KJ -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Jung Sent: June 20, 2005 3:15 PM To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls Hi Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server and = made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http (web)=20 port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all graphics = etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http = port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we wouldn't have the=20 hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? Am I way off the beam here? - Daniel --=20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 =20 From milokp@gmail.com Mon Jun 20 19:18:52 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C70F5BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497C8D6E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 26683-02-46 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66580342C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i8so903174rne for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:18:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=m48bpU3gYQtVzzeBTYV9HNHRDtClPa1vmh36J/4VBEbpHQSpTJdc3EFreyITjwahY1Pu0lP3QQIPM/7H1jOaPWwyRJQlLLwdY0jwlKGdYLKJtpnumcTUk4I729c4xqM6iGSbNk7Hbj2m3ABFUUuH58cw57l2oyQmlYN9tvphd0Q= Received: by 10.38.79.33 with SMTP id c33mr2416330rnb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.208.37 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:18:47 +0000 From: Milo Pschigoda To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls In-Reply-To: <000801c575df$d1427f00$640119ac@lilith> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <42B731E0.20806@uib.no> <000801c575df$d1427f00$640119ac@lilith> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1429 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: milokp@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: milokp@gmail.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Kevin, I think you might be thinking a bit backwards on that. A firewall will not block port 80, but *just* might block port 21. If it did block port 80, the users behind it would not be able to surf the web. To Dan, though: Yeah, I have run encore like that. As for the graphics server, I added a second IP address to my network card and told Apache to run only on that IP. This was a while ago and I am trying to remember, but I don't think I had any problems with it. On 6/20/05, Kevin Jepson wrote: > Daniel > I think you would still have a firewall hasse because by default any > firewall woorth it's salt will block both of those ports. >=20 > So opening port 80 and port 23 takes the same amount of time as opening > custom ports. >=20 > I would suggest that you not use the default ports, ie 80 and 23, because > they "attract" too much attention from potential bad guys out on the net. >=20 > I don't understand what you mean about having to "to dislocate all graphi= cs > etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http > port would be used by the MOO." The EnCore webserver is not fetching them > now via port 80 (is it?!?). >=20 > Ciao > KJ >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] On > Behalf Of Daniel Jung > Sent: June 20, 2005 3:15 PM > To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. > Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls >=20 >=20 > Hi >=20 > Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server and > made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http (web) > port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all graphics > etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http > port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we wouldn't have the > hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? >=20 > Am I way off the beam here? >=20 > - Daniel >=20 > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From jung@uib.no Mon Jun 20 19:31:48 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22815BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:31:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B389FE33 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:31:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 27386-02-82 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:31:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from noralf.uib.no (noralf.uib.no [129.177.30.12]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88033459 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] by noralf.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DkWg4-0007cs-1k; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:31:44 +0200 Received: from 213-145-178-104.dd.nextgentel.com ([10.24.104.19]) [213.145.178.104] by smtp.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DkWg3-0003H4-Qu; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:31:43 +0200 Message-ID: <42B75EFA.6070701@uib.no> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:27:38 +0200 From: Daniel Jung User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls References: <42B731E0.20806@uib.no> <000801c575df$d1427f00$640119ac@lilith> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on noralf X-Scanner: e9d99a2849f269a5bc53ba5ba50c7ed3 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 0 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace in message header 'X-UiB-SpamReport': X-archive-position: 1430 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jung@uib.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jung@uib.no List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Milo Pschigoda wrote: > To Dan, though: Yeah, I have run encore like that. As for the > graphics server, I added a second IP address to my network card and > told Apache to run only on that IP. cool! (that would mean setting up ten-fifteen boxes in my case... not very realistic, but in theory that's cool) - daniel From KEustace@csu.edu.au Mon Jun 20 20:16:13 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4B55BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9489AC8F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29041-02-97 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Greylist: delayed 996 seconds by postgrey-1.21 at mx2; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:04 CDT Received: from csunb.mit.csu.edu.au (csunb.csu.edu.au [137.166.4.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B21342C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:16:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xcba01.csumain.csu.edu.au (xcba01.csumain.csu.edu.au [137.166.5.22]) by csunb.mit.csu.edu.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5L0x8Eu011521; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:59:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from xcww02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au ([137.166.69.23]) by xcba01.csumain.csu.edu.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:59:09 +1000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:59:08 +1000 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [encore] ports and firewalls Thread-Index: AcV13dsLIQYrJmQgSVuO28wjU5F7IQAGyzVu From: "Eustace, Ken" To: , , "Discussion related to the MOO platform." X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2005 00:59:09.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[6E5AF3F0:01C575FC] X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1431 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: KEustace@csu.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: KEustace@csu.edu.au List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Daniel, We use a ZOPE server to hold graphics and its works well as it also uses = an object database and WebDav. Together with my colleagues, Geoff and Allan, we have also been thinking = "off the beam" at ways of improving the enCore interface for some time. = Our futuristic enCore system woulod get rid of firewall and port = blocking issues. Currently our 2 enCore MOOs are running both telnet and = HTTP in consecutive pairs eg 7682 HTTP and 7683 telnet, and that has = been a help. The challenge is to get rid of telnet as the synchronous protocol and = database login. But which way to go? Encrypted telnet via SSH2 may make = system admin and firewall watchdogs feel more at ease, but it is still = telnet, so do we go in another direction? Do we access via cell phones? = (we say mobile phones in AU) XML, XSLT or the Mozilla way via a XUL interface with RSS features and = audio and video? If all we can do is pose questions, then it may be that we do not have = the answers. Lots of thought here, but no action so far. But it would be = good to cast off telnet with a long service medal, and look to some more = 'cool' protocol to interact with our objects as well as keep the = 'conversation framework' of synchronous discussion, with its high = educational value, adjacent to our computers and mobile devices. -Ken Eustace Charles Sturt University Australia. -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu on behalf of Daniel Jung Sent: Tue 21/06/2005 7:15 AM To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. Cc:=09 Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls Hi Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server and = made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http (web)=20 port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all graphics = etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http = port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we wouldn't have the=20 hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? Am I way off the beam here? - Daniel From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Mon Jun 20 22:02:15 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:15 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486635BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17459EDA for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 05641-01-54 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C691343E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050621030210.XHZY27925.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:02:10 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: Cc: Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:01:43 -0600 Message-ID: <001501c5760d$8e3ea610$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1432 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Milo A Firewall will block port 80 by default because a webserver "responds" = to requests on that port. Most firewalls prevent outside access to internal servers which would respond to those requests. The firewall is blocking INCOMING connections. The outgoing request for = an http connection is usually some random port number NOT port 80. Most firewalls while permitting http requests from inside, the random = port number, will block http requests from outside. It is the ones from = outside that are aiming at port 80. Some security conscious sites will block outgoing http requests as well because they want to use a proxy server to make sure they are allowed = sites. Then the firewall will block the connection both ways. My firewall for example blocks all standard ports coming in (including = http, ssh and telnet) but allows everything going out. I have one port open = for the telnet side of my MOO using port 7777, and one for the Web side at = 8000. I'm still not sure what the rationale is for splitting the graphics from = the server. Ciao KJ =20 -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] On Behalf Of Milo Pschigoda Sent: June 20, 2005 6:19 PM To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Kevin, I think you might be thinking a bit backwards on that. A = firewall will not block port 80, but *just* might block port 21. If it did block port 80, the users behind it would not be able to surf the web. To Dan, though: Yeah, I have run encore like that. As for the graphics server, I added a second IP address to my network card and told Apache = to run only on that IP. This was a while ago and I am trying to remember, = but I don't think I had any problems with it. On 6/20/05, Kevin Jepson wrote: > Daniel > I think you would still have a firewall hasse because by default any=20 > firewall woorth it's salt will block both of those ports. >=20 > So opening port 80 and port 23 takes the same amount of time as=20 > opening custom ports. >=20 > I would suggest that you not use the default ports, ie 80 and 23,=20 > because they "attract" too much attention from potential bad guys out=20 > on the net. >=20 > I don't understand what you mean about having to "to dislocate all=20 > graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the=20 > standard http port would be used by the MOO." The EnCore webserver is=20 > not fetching them now via port 80 (is it?!?). >=20 > Ciao > KJ >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]=20 > On Behalf Of Daniel Jung > Sent: June 20, 2005 3:15 PM > To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. > Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls >=20 >=20 > Hi >=20 > Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server=20 > and made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http=20 > (web) port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all=20 > graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the=20 > standard http port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we=20 > wouldn't have the hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? >=20 > Am I way off the beam here? >=20 > - Daniel >=20 > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date:=20 > 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date:=20 > 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 =20 From milokp@gmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:31:49 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A875BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482FCEFD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 04115-02-82 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2313343E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i8so949634rne for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:31:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E+wd6fNjKI/PrGLzZcBZuPoBcHzQc2eBFL85qVWoQF2gz6gN94sx3Wxg0uH232zvU+yEtFdFuD1fWOwG+NeeXGl/6FXvWidHu8SK91O3YgY8s+Yz+nGqgilLTj3zx5CzUaOCvdoje62Fn/LSq5FWXuFdf//LMdDIp/7K/SCNYcE= Received: by 10.38.97.68 with SMTP id u68mr423816rnb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.208.37 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:31:45 +0000 From: Milo Pschigoda To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls In-Reply-To: <001501c5760d$8e3ea610$640119ac@lilith> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c5760d$8e3ea610$640119ac@lilith> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1433 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: milokp@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: milokp@gmail.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Kevin Right, but that doesn't really pertain to the problem at hand, which is users being blocked from accessing remote-address.com:7000 . The server already has incoming access on both 80 and 7000. The problem comes in when a user (like me) wants to connect to his moo, but finds that his ISP has blocked outgoing connections on 7000. Now, if the moo were running on 80 it wouldn't be a problem, if I were in control of the router it wouldn't be a problem. See what I mean? --Miles P On 6/21/05, Kevin Jepson wrote: > Hi Milo > A Firewall will block port 80 by default because a webserver "responds" t= o > requests on that port. Most firewalls prevent outside access to internal > servers which would respond to those requests. >=20 > The firewall is blocking INCOMING connections. The outgoing request for = an > http connection is usually some random port number NOT port 80. >=20 > Most firewalls while permitting http requests from inside, the random por= t > number, will block http requests from outside. It is the ones from outsid= e > that are aiming at port 80. >=20 > Some security conscious sites will block outgoing http requests as well > because they want to use a proxy server to make sure they are allowed sit= es. > Then the firewall will block the connection both ways. >=20 > My firewall for example blocks all standard ports coming in (including ht= tp, > ssh and telnet) but allows everything going out. I have one port open for > the telnet side of my MOO using port 7777, and one for the Web side at 80= 00. >=20 > I'm still not sure what the rationale is for splitting the graphics from = the > server. >=20 > Ciao > KJ > -----Original Message----- > From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] On > Behalf Of Milo Pschigoda > Sent: June 20, 2005 6:19 PM > To: encore@utdallas.edu > Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls >=20 >=20 > Kevin, I think you might be thinking a bit backwards on that. A firewall > will not block port 80, but *just* might block port 21. If it did block > port 80, the users behind it would not be able to surf the web. >=20 > To Dan, though: Yeah, I have run encore like that. As for the graphics > server, I added a second IP address to my network card and told Apache to > run only on that IP. This was a while ago and I am trying to remember, b= ut > I don't think I had any problems with it. >=20 > On 6/20/05, Kevin Jepson wrote: > > Daniel > > I think you would still have a firewall hasse because by default any > > firewall woorth it's salt will block both of those ports. > > > > So opening port 80 and port 23 takes the same amount of time as > > opening custom ports. > > > > I would suggest that you not use the default ports, ie 80 and 23, > > because they "attract" too much attention from potential bad guys out > > on the net. > > > > I don't understand what you mean about having to "to dislocate all > > graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the > > standard http port would be used by the MOO." The EnCore webserver is > > not fetching them now via port 80 (is it?!?). > > > > Ciao > > KJ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] > > On Behalf Of Daniel Jung > > Sent: June 20, 2005 3:15 PM > > To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. > > Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls > > > > > > Hi > > > > Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server > > and made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http > > (web) port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all > > graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the > > standard http port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we > > wouldn't have the hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? > > > > Am I way off the beam here? > > > > - Daniel > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: > > 17/06/2005 > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: > > 17/06/2005 > > > > > > > > >=20 > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 >=20 >=20 > From kevijeps@telusplanet.net Mon Jun 20 23:01:47 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:01:47 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46AFF5BAD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:01:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A647AAF for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:01:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 05715-02-83 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:01:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F203451 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:01:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lilith ([209.89.30.219]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050621040138.BBUD27925.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@lilith>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:01:38 -0600 From: "Kevin Jepson" To: Cc: Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:01:11 -0600 Message-ID: <001701c57615$dca70010$640119ac@lilith> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1434 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Milo I'm sorry, I thought you were refering to a firewall at the site hosting = the MOO. From what I can see ISPs are far more likley to block port 80 requests, = so as to disable unauthorized web servers, that is in fact what mine does = :( hence my MOOs web side is 8000. My ISP also blocks all smtp traffic, unless it is directed to one of = their smtp servers, as a way to try and reduce spambot traffic. I haven't run into a problem with ISPs blocking arbritrary ports. They = do block the well known ones, if they are particularly picky. Daniel's comment seemed to be referring to users who are trying to = connect through a firewall to a MOO behind another firewall. Whether the MOO is running standard Web and Telnet ports or not makes no difference from = what I can see because a firewall that does not allow outside access to = arbritrary ports likley blocks telnet anyway. I would be surprised if many sites = block outbound http requests (because that's what users mostly use along with mail) unless they are using a proxy server.=20 The problem with users behind firewalls is more likely related to = needing the firewall admin to permit access. That is an administrative problem = at the user site and would probably exist even if our ports were entirely standard because we use Telnet. Which has become known as a "bad thing" = to paranoid sysadmins. :(=20 I admit that explaining the non-standard ports to a typical sysadmin = droid isn't much fun either. Ciao KJ =20 -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu] On Behalf Of Milo Pschigoda Sent: June 20, 2005 9:32 PM To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Kevin Right, but that doesn't really pertain to the problem at hand, which is users being blocked from accessing remote-address.com:7000 . The server already has incoming access on both 80 and 7000. The problem comes in = when a user (like me) wants to connect to his moo, but finds that his ISP has blocked outgoing connections on 7000. Now, if the moo were running on = 80 it wouldn't be a problem, if I were in control of the router it wouldn't be = a problem. See what I mean? --Miles P --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 =20 From kschwien@tcd.ie Tue Jun 21 07:18:41 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:41 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458E85BAD for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB79DF8E for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 21991-02-87 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Greylist: delayed 1514 seconds by postgrey-1.21 at mx2; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:35 CDT Received: from smtp3.tcd.ie (smtp3.tcd.ie [134.226.1.158]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B516343E for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Vams.smtp3 (smtp3.tcd.ie [134.226.1.158]) by smtp3.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id D3D6414C023; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:53:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from smtp3.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.158]) by smtp3.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.158]) with SMTP (gateway) id A02E59CA806; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:53:13 +0100 Received: from clcs240253 (clcs240253.lcs.tcd.ie [134.226.240.253]) by smtp3.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3F814C023; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:53:13 +0100 (IST) From: "Klaus Schwienhorst" To: encore@utdallas.edu Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:53:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [encore] Re: Web integration Cc: development@encore-consortium.org Message-ID: <42B80DB9.6998.48BC21E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.0.20050613222300.01cad8b8@accdvm.accd.edu> References: <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.768) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: smtp3.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A12E59CA806 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1435 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: kschwien@tcd.ie Precedence: bulk Reply-to: kschwien@tcd.ie List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Dear all, I have been working with Encore since 1999, and MOOs in general since 1992. Since 1999, I have been doing MOO tandem projects, language learning projects where somebody's first language is the partner's second language (for example, a US student studying German, and a German studying English). Over the past few years, with enormous help by Alexandre Borgia's programming skills, we have developed and made available our tools for language learning within the context of learner autonomy. I refer here solely to Encore as an educational tool. I think the potential of MOOs for our area is far from exploited; we have many ideas that await funding (hopefully this summer) to be realised. Especially in terms of raising learners awareness, the MOO and text is an excellent tool. It is reliable, fast, and offers authoring for learners and teachers. I like that the MOO is transparent, I can see how everything is built up and done, and take ideas. What are the drawbacks? I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER, met a language student (and that includes Computer Science students) who likes command- line interfaces. If a programme uses it, they ignore the programme. I would not expect a learner to learn even the basics of MOO commands just to be able to communicate, or even to write "say", when the project runs over 10 sessions. My learners are used to menu-driven, windows type interfaces. When we wanted to do our first MOO project, before the web interface, I introduced the MOO to my students. They just looked at me with pity and turned round to play their immersive 3D networked games. In terms of interface to functionality, the MOO, even today, barely manages to compete (ouch!). Recommendations: The visibility of all code has to stay, so does some kind of modular nature. Object creation MUST become easier, form fields are ok to do that. Learners need to have object creation tools that guide them from very basic to programming level. What about adding some audio conferencing tool, with the possibility to record? Or a voice board? A "live" white board (we created one but not live and made it available)? MORE web support. Opportunity to colour text in the output frame. Etc. If we see Encore as an educational tool, then I think it should face a comparison with other educational tools in its targetted subject areas. Conduct more hard empirical research on how the MOO can be used (we have done this for years), how we need to change things to make them more beneficial to our students; how we can make them better learners through a thorough combination of technology and pedagogy. Regards, K -- Dr. Klaus Schwienhorst CLCS, Arts Building Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Phone: Ireland +1 6083316; Fax: Ireland +1 6082941; Email: kschwien@tcd.ie Web: http://www.tcd.ie/CLCS/people/Klaus_Schwienhorst/index.html From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Tue Jun 21 09:31:02 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FFB5BAD for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5387F11B for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 02371-01-21 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:30:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id AABA5344E for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:30:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gh-208-300633.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.41] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:30:03 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621091357.01d4e520@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:24:24 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: Web integration In-Reply-To: <42B80DB9.6998.48BC21E@localhost> References: <42ADFE31.3050006@uib.no> <42B80DB9.6998.48BC21E@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1436 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Klaus, I am right with your on student's reactions to command-line driven programs. Particularly today. I think what we've discussed related to Kevin J's thoughts are that when moo is in its text-only form, perhaps the command-line interface works better because that is all they have to go on. They may not like it, but they adapt. enCore and its move toward point and click, menu driven, form interface is definitely the way to go, but you are right to point out that it has a long way to go. Daniel is making some amazing progress with the new enCore v5 in this regard: http://lingo.uib.no:9002. I'm not sure if guest access if set up yet, but if not contact Daniel for a username. I encourage you to have a look. The enCore Consortium is set up to support the development of enCore in exactly the direction you are mentioning (I hope you consider signing up if you haven't already become a member http://encore-consortium.org). I am also really interested to hear the ways in which Alex Borgia has helped you with your MOO. Would any of the innovations you have incorporated into your MOO be available to add into the new v5 version? I am also really interested in funding possibilities. What sort of things are you seeking funding for? Where are you going for the funding? Cheers, Lennie At 06:53 AM 6/21/2005, you wrote: >Dear all, > >I have been working with Encore since 1999, and MOOs in general since 1992. >Since 1999, I have been doing MOO tandem projects, language learning >projects where somebody's first language is the >partner's second language (for example, a US student studying German, and >a German studying English). Over the past few >years, with enormous help by Alexandre Borgia's programming skills, we >have developed and made available our tools for >language learning within the context of learner autonomy. I refer here >solely to Encore as an educational tool. > >I think the potential of MOOs for our area is far from exploited; we have >many ideas that await funding (hopefully this >summer) to be realised. Especially in terms of raising learners awareness, >the MOO and text is an excellent tool. It is >reliable, fast, and offers authoring for learners and teachers. I like >that the MOO is transparent, I can see how >everything is built up and done, and take ideas. > >What are the drawbacks? >I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER, met a language student (and that includes >Computer Science students) who likes command- >line interfaces. If a programme uses it, they ignore the programme. I >would not expect a learner to learn even the >basics of MOO commands just to be able to communicate, or even to write >"say", when the project runs over 10 sessions. >My learners are used to menu-driven, windows type interfaces. >When we wanted to do our first MOO project, before the web interface, I >introduced the MOO to my students. They just >looked at me with pity and turned round to play their immersive 3D >networked games. In terms of interface to >functionality, the MOO, even today, barely manages to compete (ouch!). > >Recommendations: >The visibility of all code has to stay, so does some kind of modular nature. >Object creation MUST become easier, form fields are ok to do that. >Learners need to have object creation tools that >guide them from very basic to programming level. >What about adding some audio conferencing tool, with the possibility to >record? Or a voice board? A "live" white board >(we created one but not live and made it available)? MORE web support. >Opportunity to colour text in the output frame. >Etc. > >If we see Encore as an educational tool, then I think it should face a >comparison with other educational tools in its >targetted subject areas. Conduct more hard empirical research on how the >MOO can be used (we have done this for years), >how we need to change things to make them more beneficial to our students; >how we can make them better learners through >a thorough combination of technology and pedagogy. > >Regards, >K > >-- >Dr. Klaus Schwienhorst >CLCS, Arts Building >Trinity College >Dublin 2 >Ireland >Phone: Ireland +1 6083316; Fax: Ireland +1 6082941; >Email: kschwien@tcd.ie >Web: http://www.tcd.ie/CLCS/people/Klaus_Schwienhorst/index.html From egoff@mindspring.com Thu Jun 23 19:07:08 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:08 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6F35BAD for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8591314 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 10572-02-26 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CDC342C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:03 -0500 (CDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=o0K9OqWHfCh77OBQsiABPDI39VqUhgrsVIXhlDfZTwQylndgnS8wTXAM3ADlxmVD; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Disposition-Notification-To:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.250.78.202] (helo=master) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dlbip-0000xd-9S for encore@utdallas.edu; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:07:03 -0400 From: "Edward Goff" To: "Encore" Subject: [encore] Re: ports and firewalls Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:05:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <42B731E0.20806@uib.no> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-ELNK-Trace: 23f5b2bec61e6078d4c20f6b8d69d88831f964467e38cbeab4a69cbdcdd86d457a398b8ac89cc32b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.250.78.202 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1437 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: egoff@mindspring.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: egoff@mindspring.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Not having seen this statement and hoping I didn't over look it. Making default ports 23 and 80 is a BIG security risk no sane sys admin would want I actually refuse to allow raw telnet sessions to port 23 period. If you cant get in thru encore of the port I have set aside then get the RSA key my server offers and come in thru SSL. Login with your user name and PW or bugger off :) Linux is not windows and doesn't crash every five minutes but no sense in closing the backdoor good to let the thief in the front. -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On Behalf Of Daniel Jung Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 5:15 PM To: encore@utdallas.edu; Discussion related to the MOO platform. Subject: [encore] ports and firewalls Hi Just thinking. If we put a (web based, e.g., encore) MOO on a server and made it /really/ dedicated, we could have it listen on 80 as http (web) port and 23 as telnet port. We would then need to dislocate all graphics etc. to another server and fetch them from there since the standard http port would be used by the MOO. But it would mean we wouldn't have the hassle with user behind firewalls, would we? Am I way off the beam here? - Daniel From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Jun 29 08:42:05 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:05 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CED5BC4 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FEBB1295 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 19472-02-49 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AE093430 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.1] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:41:09 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050629083410.01d50008@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:42:17 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] enCore Symposium August 12-13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1438 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hi Everyone, The enCore Symposium, a face-to-face gathering of enCore users and Consortium members, will be taking place August 12-13 at the University of Texas--Dallas in Dallas, Texas. Complete information about the Symposium and travel details will be out soon, but I wanted to send out a reminder for those of you who may be able to make it. This gathering is meant to strengthen the mutually supportive relationship that I hope the enCore Consortium will develop between itself and its members. What that means is to find and build ways in which the Consortium can support what you do with enCore at your school/location and to find and build ways in which you can support the larger work of the Consortium. Full information about the Symposium and how to register will be out in the next couple of days. Yours, Lennie From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Jun 29 09:09:29 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:30 -0500 (CDT) Return-Path: X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6F55BC4 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8]) by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA9812B4 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([129.110.10.17]) by localhost (mf1 [10.110.10.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23841-01-43 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 05E9C344E for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Gilgamesh.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.1] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:08:32 CDT Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050629084219.01d586b0@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:09:40 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Writing Spaces--a grant proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at utdallas.edu X-archive-position: 1439 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hey again, The life blood for future development of enCore will be through grants which support this development. I am no expert on how the grant funding world works, but it seems to me that a computer application by itself is not the best candidate to receive grant funding. However, some educational use or mission that can be accomplished through using a particular computer application does have a chance of receiving grant funding. It is my hope that the enCore Consortium will generate a mutually supportive relationship where the Consortium supports individual members' grant applications and individuals with their grants support the Consortium. So for instance, I might write a National Endowment for the Humanities Grant and written into that grant are funds that would go through the Consortium to fund specific programming projects. Or the Consortium itself might receive a grant from a foundation or corporation and then in turn award Grants to individuals to work on projects. What I am proposing is that we can help each other find grant funding. With this philosophy in mind, I think it is crucial for us right now to come up with idea for how we can use enCore for some teaching or research goal we are involved in. I encourage you to come up with an idea that comes from your own situation, needs, and expertise. What follows is an idea I have coming from my position as a writing teacher: Writing Spaces--A Grant Proposal This grant would seek to promote enCore as a platform for teaching and sharing writing online. I would highlight enCore's possible use in classes K-college. I'm already connected into the National Writing Project, so I would probably link this grant to the NWP in some way (they also have internal grants that they award). I would stress enCore's open source and free nature as well as its interactivity to sell it as a tool that would be easily and widely available to educators. Also, we can fit the development of enCore and this grant as pursuing the larger goal of improving writing skills and filling the "Neglected R" gap (as in the three Rs, reading writing arithmetic with writing being the neglected one). The grant would highlight the need to develop enCore as an tool for online writing and sharing and would highlight the development of these objects and capabilities: --the ability to display formatted text in enCore (as in something like HTML Area) --a peer response object --ease of hosting a site (either through the "one world" idea or improved install/update features) --development of a personal blog feature --improved features for building interactive room spaces --other ideas This is only a sketch, but the idea is to stress enCore's potential for fulfilling a need (i.e. an easy to use and inexpensive online writing tool) and how certain work needs to be done to the program to better fullfill this need. If this is possible, I can see this as a kind of umbrella grant proposal. Many of us might write individual grants that fit within the larger "Writing Spaces" grant idea at the same time as we seek funding for the larger theme of Writing Spaces that might support these individual grants. This idea is fairly raw, but it is this kind of idea (I think) that we will have to build our grant proposals around. What ideas do you have? Please let me know if any of you are interested in pursuing (and refining) the Writing Spaces idea. Ciao, Lennie