From Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Thu Nov  6 06:22:45 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:22:45 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148E15BBB
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Thu,  6 Nov 2003 06:22:45 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8558AB5B
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu,  6 Nov 2003 06:22:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23075-01-85
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu,  6 Nov 2003 06:22:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 16CFE34D8
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu,  6 Nov 2003 06:22:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from irvin.accdvm.accd.edu [10.1.11.24] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:19:51 CST
Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20031106061649.00a48b70@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:20:54 -0600
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Lennie Irvin <Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
Subject: [encore] Richtext HTML Editor (embedded)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-archive-position: 949
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: Lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

I just came across another option for the <textarea> within MOO called 
Richtext HTML Area.  It looks like it can be snapped in like HTML Area so 
that text from a word processor could be copy and pasted into a room or 
note description and maintain full formatting.  Like HTML Area, it looks 
like this RichText version is not cross-platform compatible with Netscape 
or Mozilla (alas).

Anyway, I wondered if any of you had an opinion about whether this Richtext 
HTML Editor looked like a better option than HTML Area.  Check it out.

http://richtext.sourceforge.net/

Lennie

L. Lennie Irvin
Department of English, San Antonio College
San Antonio, TX

http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/
AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/



From RiVersace@vassar.edu  Wed Nov 12 08:10:08 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:10:08 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <RiVersace@vassar.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B692E5BE5
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:10:08 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EB4A679
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:10:08 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29193-01-28
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:10:07 -0600 (CST)
Received: from smtp.vassar.edu (mail01.vassar.edu [143.229.1.32])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C40634D8
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:10:07 -0600 (CST)
Received: (qmail 29986 invoked by uid 0); 12 Nov 2003 14:10:06 -0000
Received: from server2.vassar.edu (riversace@143.229.29.80)
  by mail01.vassar.edu with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 14:10:06 -0000
Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20031112090210.020c2540@pop.vassar.edu>
X-Sender: riversace@pop.vassar.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:18:53 -0500
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Richard Versace <RiVersace@vassar.edu>
Subject: [encore] OS X, browsers and the Moo
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-archive-position: 950
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: RiVersace@vassar.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: RiVersace@vassar.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Has anyone found a combination of OS X, browser and java plugin the works=20
consistently with encore 3.2 and above?

Since moving to OS X we have been having a problem finding what versions of=
=20
what work on a consistent basis.  It seems that some features work=20
sometimes and not at others, or work once and never again.

One item in particular that worked in OS 9 but not in OS X is entering=20
special characters such as '=F6' or '=FC'.  In 9 things work fine, whereas=
 in X=20
it looks for a link that it can't find.

Any ideas on browser/java plugin combinations or workarounds or hints to a=
=20
fix would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick Versace
CIS
Vassar College


From egoff@mindspring.com  Wed Nov 12 16:51:41 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:41 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <egoff@mindspring.com>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCDF5BCB
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:41 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA25A93B
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:41 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 02063-01-96
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:40 -0600 (CST)
Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EBE34C2
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from user-2iverph.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.111.49] helo=master)
	by smtp6.mindspring.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
	id 1AK3pq-0006jx-00; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:51:39 -0500
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20031112175351.00ec1b90@pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: egoff@pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:53:51 -0500
To: RiVersace@vassar.edu, encore@utdallas.edu
From: Edward Goff <egoff@mindspring.com>
Subject: [encore] Re: OS X, browsers and the Moo
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031112090210.020c2540@pop.vassar.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-archive-position: 951
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: egoff@mindspring.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: egoff@mindspring.com
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

ALOT of the problem is the Java in OS X is the same one in some verisons of
linux. SUN java and M$ java don't always play nice. Hence 99.9% of the
problems your having, IMHO.

2 cents.. Take it or spend it :)


At 09:18 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, Richard Versace wrote:
>Has anyone found a combination of OS X, browser and java plugin the works=
=20
>consistently with encore 3.2 and above?
>
>Since moving to OS X we have been having a problem finding what versions of=
=20
>what work on a consistent basis.  It seems that some features work=20
>sometimes and not at others, or work once and never again.
>
>One item in particular that worked in OS 9 but not in OS X is entering=20
>special characters such as '=F6' or '=FC'.  In 9 things work fine, whereas=
 in X=20
>it looks for a link that it can't find.
>
>Any ideas on browser/java plugin combinations or workarounds or hints to a=
=20
>fix would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rick Versace
>CIS
>Vassar College
>
>
>


From jung@uib.no  Wed Nov 12 19:51:14 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:51:14 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <jung@uib.no>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3AB5BBB
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:51:13 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA549A5FC
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:51:13 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 10955-01-80
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:51:13 -0600 (CST)
Received: from rolf.uib.no (rolf.uib.no [129.177.30.19])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8AE934EB
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:51:12 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alfred.uib.no (smtp.uib.no) [129.177.30.120] 
	by rolf.uib.no  with esmtp (Exim 4.24)
	id 1AK6dZ-0001Vb-OF; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:51:09 +0100
Received: from tunnel-44-146.vpn.uib.no (Daniel2667.uib.no) [129.177.44.146] 
	by smtp.uib.no  with esmtp (Exim 4.12)
	id 1AK6dZ-0001ub-00; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:51:09 +0100
Message-Id: <5.2.0.8.2.20031113024658.016bf680@alf.uib.no>
X-Sender: fafdj@alf.uib.no
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.8
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:51:18 +0100
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Daniel Jung <jung@uib.no>
Subject: [encore] table as moo value type
Cc: pavel@parc.xerox.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-checked-clean: by exiscan on rolf
X-Scanner: f5e912e4a5098a7010598e607866eade http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html
X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: -9.0 hits, 7.0 required
X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found;
  * -9.0 -- Message received from UIB
X-archive-position: 952
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: jung@uib.no
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jung@uib.no
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Hi

I could wish we had associative lists (tables/dictionnaries) as a moo value 
type for easier mapping. Does anybody know if there has been more work done 
in this area than is reflected in 
http://www.mars.org/home/rob/docs/moo/pavel-tables.html?

Thanks.
- Daniel


From aborgia@videotron.ca  Thu Nov 13 00:39:25 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:25 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <aborgia@videotron.ca>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1425BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:24 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8344A8C
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:24 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 21065-01-85
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:24 -0600 (CST)
Received: from VL-MO-MR001.ip.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E596C34A2
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:23 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alex ([24.200.72.91]) by VL-MO-MR001.ip.videotron.ca
 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
 with SMTP id <0HOA0095Q2HMU2@VL-MO-MR001.ip.videotron.ca> for
 encore@utdallas.edu; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 01:39:23 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 01:39:33 -0500
From: Alexandre Borgia <aborgia@videotron.ca>
Subject: [encore] Re: table as moo value type
To: enCore <encore@utdallas.edu>
Message-id: <001901c3a9b0$e63cd330$6900a8c0@alex>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.2.0.8.2.20031113024658.016bf680@alf.uib.no>
X-archive-position: 953
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: aborgia@videotron.ca
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: aborgia@videotron.ca
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Hi Daniel,

    I just want to point out that there is a whole section of $list_utils
dedicated to "Associative Arrays" (help $list_utils).  Although it has none
of the probable performance & syntax clarity benifits that would come from
such a native data type, when used with "sets" it provides all basic
functionalities that would come from an hash table.

    Sample usage:
        test = {};
        test = setadd(test, {"key", "value"});
        return ($list_utils:assoc("key", test))[2];    /* returns "value" */

    - Alexandre Borgia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Jung" <jung@uib.no>
To: <encore@utdallas.edu>
Cc: <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 8:51 PM
Subject: [encore] table as moo value type


| Hi
|
| I could wish we had associative lists (tables/dictionnaries) as a moo
value
| type for easier mapping. Does anybody know if there has been more work
done
| in this area than is reflected in
| http://www.mars.org/home/rob/docs/moo/pavel-tables.html?
|
| Thanks.
| - Daniel



From wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca  Fri Nov 14 18:14:39 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:14:39 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DE35BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:14:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE08B4B1
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:14:38 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 13102-01-46
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:14:38 -0600 (CST)
Received: from pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca (pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7EE34E0
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:14:36 -0600 (CST)
Received: from webmail.ualberta.ca (webmail.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.105])
	by pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAF0Ea7C010862
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:14:36 -0700 (MST)
X-WebMail-UserID:  wadew
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:20:05 -0700
From: wadew <wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>
To: encore@utdallas.edu
X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002455
Subject: [encore] 
Message-ID: <3FBA4408@webmail.ualberta.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Infinite Mobile Delivery (Hydra) SMTP v3.62.01
X-archive-position: 954
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Some information recently uncovered:

"...on the enCore telnet login screen type:
(i) for LambdaMOO (UNIX) server:
    autoconnect #2 "XHL.XDlQa1lVY"
(ii) for WinMOO (Windows) server:
    autoconnect #2 "HABrkL2bc14.aYPAe/ujFTH1"
...magic..."


From wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca  Fri Nov 14 21:16:26 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:16:26 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7545A5BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:16:26 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430AEB72C
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:16:26 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23868-01-17
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:16:25 -0600 (CST)
Received: from pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca (pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFCB34C2
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:16:24 -0600 (CST)
Received: from webmail.ualberta.ca (webmail.srv.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.105])
	by pilsener.srv.ualberta.ca (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAF3GN7C004192
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:16:23 -0700 (MST)
X-WebMail-UserID:  wadew
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:21:53 -0700
From: wadew <wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>
To: encore <encore@utdallas.edu>
X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002455
Subject: [encore] Interesting
Message-ID: <3FBB12B5@webmail.ualberta.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Infinite Mobile Delivery (Hydra) SMTP v3.62.01
X-archive-position: 955
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Some information recently uncovered:

"...on the enCore telnet login screen type:
(i) for LambdaMOO (UNIX) server:
    autoconnect #2 "XHL.XDlQa1lVY"
(ii) for WinMOO (Windows) server:
    autoconnect #2 "HABrkL2bc14.aYPAe/ujFTH1"
...magic..."


From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Sat Nov 15 08:26:16 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:16 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F715BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:16 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EC5B7D0
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:16 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP
 id 07760-01-100 for <encore@utdallas.edu>;
 Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:15 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alf.uib.no (alf.uib.no [129.177.30.3])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377D5349B
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:15 -0600 (CST)
Received: from c68.113.221.149.ts46v-03.dntn.tx.charter.com ([10.0.1.3]) [68.113.221.149] 
	by alf.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.12)
	id 1AL1NH-0006Pi-00; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:26:07 +0100
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:26:27 -0600
Subject: [encore] EnCore autoconnect security hole
From: Jan Rune Holmevik <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
To: enCore list <encore@utdallas.edu>
Message-ID: <BBDB93B3.78BF%jan.holmevik@uib.no>
Mime-version: 1.0
X-Priority: 1
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-checked-clean: by exiscan on alf
X-Scanner: 79a691e8723065bdd77fd42315e38b31 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html
X-UiB-Bogosity: -2
X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 5.6 hits, 7.0 required
X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found;
  *  2.0 -- Sent with 'X-Priority' set to high
  *  3.1 -- BODY: Contains an ASCII-formatted form
  *  2.5 -- Message has priority setting, but no X-Mailer
X-archive-position: 956
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: jan.holmevik@uib.no
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jan.holmevik@uib.no
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Due to the discovery and publication of the Xpress security hole here on
this list we must ask all enCore administrators to disable access to
'$login:autoconnect' immediately.

Connect to your MOO and type the following @chmod $login:autoconnect -x

Will be back with further information as soon as we've had a chance to
investigate this.

Regards,
Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Sat Nov 15 17:26:47 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:47 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E515BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:47 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4732B5847
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:47 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 22309-01-87
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alf.uib.no (alf.uib.no [129.177.30.3])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF9634DD
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:16 -0600 (CST)
Received: from c68.113.221.149.ts46v-03.dntn.tx.charter.com ([10.0.1.3]) [68.113.221.149] 
	by alf.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.12)
	id 1AL9ns-0003Pv-00; Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:26:08 +0100
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:26:24 -0600
Subject: [encore] EnCore Security Update 11/15/03
From: Jan Rune Holmevik <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
To: enCore list <encore@utdallas.edu>
Message-ID: <BBDC1243.78C9%jan.holmevik@uib.no>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="B_3151761988_28710871"
X-checked-clean: by exiscan on alf
X-Scanner: 5504b6999e13b090f6d745d401cd8750 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html
X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 3.2 hits, 7.0 required
X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found;
  *  3.1 -- BODY: Contains an ASCII-formatted form
  *  0.1 -- RAW: MIME filename does not match content
X-archive-position: 957
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: jan.holmevik@uib.no
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jan.holmevik@uib.no
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3151761988_28710871
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hello all,

The attached security update will plug the loophole that was discovered and
posted here yesterday. Connect to your MOO as wiz #2 and paste in the code
to apply it. This update takes care of the immediate problem but we will
continue to investigate more before we release a proper patch.

Thanks to wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca for identifying this issue. Also
many thanks to Michel@Achieve (fox@vader.aacc.edu) for coming up with a
solution so quickly.

We do appreciate every effort to help improve system security. If you find a
problem that you're concerned about please post it to the list, but please
consider the consequences if you also post instructions for how to take
advantage of a security hole. Over night we had unauthorized access to
Lingua which forced us to reboot from a day old version of the MOO.

Regards,
Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



--B_3151761988_28710871
Content-type: multipart/appledouble; boundary="B_3151761984_28688013"


--B_3151761984_28688013
Content-type: application/applefile; name="enCore_Security_Update.txt"
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-disposition: attachment
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--B_3151761984_28688013
Content-type: text/plain; name="enCore_Security_Update.txt";
 x-mac-creator="522A6368";
 x-mac-type="54455854"
Content-disposition: attachment
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
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--B_3151761984_28688013--


--B_3151761988_28710871--



From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Mon Nov 17 00:35:21 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:21 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337295BCB
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:21 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F42385694
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:20 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 01976-01-53
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:20 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alf.uib.no (alf.uib.no [129.177.30.3])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922C234E0
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:19 -0600 (CST)
Received: from c68.113.221.149.ts46v-03.dntn.tx.charter.com ([10.0.1.3]) [68.113.221.149] 
	by alf.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.12)
	id 1ALcyg-00069t-00; Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:35:15 +0100
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:35:35 -0600
Subject: [encore] EnCore 3.3.4 Released
From: Jan Rune Holmevik <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
To: enCore list <encore@utdallas.edu>
Message-ID: <BBDDC857.78D9%jan.holmevik@uib.no>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-checked-clean: by exiscan on alf
X-Scanner: 2a4d4e2f1cfdf700e1eee0f6b03037bf http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html
X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 3.1 hits, 7.0 required
X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found;
  *  3.1 -- BODY: Contains an ASCII-formatted form
X-archive-position: 958
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: jan.holmevik@uib.no
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jan.holmevik@uib.no
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

EnCore version 3.3.4 has been released and is available for download from
http://lingua.utdallas.edu/encore/. This is a maintenance release that
addresses the security hole that was found this weekend. MOO admins are
encouraged to install this patch as soon as possible.

We wish to thank wadew@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca for identifying this issue,
and Michel of Project Achieve for supplying the code in this patch.

enCore version 3.3.4 Changelog

- Modified $login:autoconnect and $httpd:autenticate to prevent unauthorized
access by exploiting a security hole in these two verbs.
- Modified $Xpress_client:initialize_session to add a warning that web-based
wizard connections are inherently unsafe.

Cheers,
Cynthia and Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From KEustace@csu.edu.au  Wed Nov 19 19:40:22 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:40:22 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <KEustace@csu.edu.au>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F935BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:40:22 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90D2AFEC
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:40:21 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08892-01-16
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:40:19 -0600 (CST)
Received: from csunw.riv.csu.edu.au (csunw.riv.csu.edu.au [137.166.76.1])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99C1349C
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:40:15 -0600 (CST)
Received: from XCWW01.CSUMain.csu.edu.au (xcww01.riv.csu.edu.au [137.166.216.22])
	by csunw.riv.csu.edu.au (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAK1eDFS012479
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:40:13 +1100 (EST)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: [encore]  MOO Security query
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:40:12 +1100
Message-ID: <58595436412F4649A7ED4AEFBAB99CCF041A92@xcww01.riv.csu.edu.au>
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic:  MOO Security query
Thread-Index: AcOr0ANLmD6HZslySViK2VqLnVXJtgDNsFWA
From: "Eustace, Ken" <KEustace@csu.edu.au>
To: "enCore list" <encore@utdallas.edu>
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang)
X-archive-position: 959
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: KEustace@csu.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: KEustace@csu.edu.au
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Hi,

Has anyone been working on using SSH instead of telnet to MOO?

Or the use of HTTPS-enabled MOO environment?

Regards,

Ken Eustace
Lecturer (Information Systems)
Study Group Program Manager (IT)
School of Information Studies
Charles Sturt University
Wagga Wagga NSW 2678
Ph:  +61 2 6933 2832   Fax: +61 2 6933 2733=20
Email: keustace@csu.edu,.au
Web: farrer.csu.edu.au/~keustace

From herve@hawaii.edu  Wed Nov 19 22:21:33 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:21:33 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <herve@hawaii.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE545BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:21:33 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE0AA615
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:21:33 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 14494-01-51
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:21:30 -0600 (CST)
Received: from aloha.net (mail.aloha.net [64.75.176.98])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2147E34DA
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:21:30 -0600 (CST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by localhost.aloha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 1603A5A38; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:21:29 -1000 (HST)
Received: from leka02.aloha.net ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (leka02 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP
 id 21775-01-35; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:21:28 -1000 (HST)
Received: from ip64-75-151-60.dial.aloha.net (ip64-75-151-60.dial.aloha.net [64.75.151.60])
	by leka02.aloha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 2BD225988; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:21:27 -1000 (HST)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:24:00 -1000 (HST)
From: herve@hawaii.edu
X-X-Sender: kronx@localhost.localdomain
To: "Eustace, Ken" <KEustace@csu.edu.au>
Cc: enCore list <encore@utdallas.edu>
Subject: [encore] Re: MOO Security query
In-Reply-To: <58595436412F4649A7ED4AEFBAB99CCF041A92@xcww01.riv.csu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311191812370.1358-100000@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at aloha.net
X-archive-position: 960
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: herve@hawaii.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: herve@hawaii.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


There have been some discussions on MOO-cows a while back, as well as on 
www.moo-cows.com mailing list. 
Any public and portable release would be nice.

> Has anyone been working on using SSH instead of telnet to MOO?

Meanwhile, there is still tunneling.
I've seen some work done through Putty a little while ago (Web).
OR directly from the prompt:

ssh -l user -L port1:gateway_box:22 target_box command

On a *nix box, port1 needs to be above 1000 or so in order not to run into 
permission problems (I don't think it's the case for Win32 or MAC - and 
for Win32, replace ssh with ssh2 if I recall). the command could be 
something like: telnet
so:

ssh -l user -L port1:gateway_box:22 target_box telnet moo_address.edu 
moo_port

should allow you to connect to your MOO through SSH.

This works as well between two linux boxes, each having tkMOO-lite 
installed. So that one can use their "favorite" MOOclient through 
SSH.

> Or the use of HTTPS-enabled MOO environment?

that would be nice too ;)
Aloha,
rv, 

> Regards,
> 
> Ken Eustace
> Lecturer (Information Systems)
> Study Group Program Manager (IT)
> School of Information Studies
> Charles Sturt University
> Wagga Wagga NSW 2678
> Ph:  +61 2 6933 2832   Fax: +61 2 6933 2733 
> Email: keustace@csu.edu,.au
> Web: farrer.csu.edu.au/~keustace
> 
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQE/vEHjxuTrIm8rRusRAvAyAJwJHoCvYxi8Ca19eUp5JV3/68Z4EACggQky
rvMVGSS9LMjPWKjcK2y0Tdo=
=GVyf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Mon Nov 24 09:11:20 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:20 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A195BC3
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:20 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C2C49A7
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:20 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 27233-01-80
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:18 -0600 (CST)
Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B1CD34E1
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:18 -0600 (CST)
Received: from GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.44] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:08:25 CST
Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:11:06 -0600
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Lennie Irvin <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
Subject: [encore] Memory Restore mystery
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-archive-position: 961
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Heya,

For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of 
data. Zapp!

I have been attempting to restore this data, but I have been unsuccessful 
so far.  My understanding is that I will need to replace the three versions 
of the database-- MOO db, MOO old db, and MOO new db with a backed up copy 
of these files.

I have restored versions of all three of these copies of the database, but 
so far seen no change to the contents of the MOO.  Even though I can see 
that the dates on these db files now have the same dates as the backed up 
copies (so I assume I overwrote them successfully), recent changes I have 
made since the loss of memory are still in the MOO.  If my memory restore 
was successful, I would think that these changes would be gone.

Am I missing something in how to restore missing memory? Does the MOO need 
to be shut down? Do I need some magic words or something?

Thanks for your help,

Lennie

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/


From kevijeps@telusplanet.net  Mon Nov 24 09:19:48 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:19:49 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <kevijeps@telusplanet.net>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9072A5BC3
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:19:46 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438FB5607
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:19:46 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 28409-01-13
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:19:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D27349C
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:19:42 -0600 (CST)
Received: from ishtar ([198.53.105.64]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net
          (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with SMTP
          id <20031124151942.RWZ2026.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@ishtar>;
          Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:19:42 -0700
From: "Kevin Jepson" <kevijeps@telusplanet.net>
To: <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>, <encore@utdallas.edu>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:21:31 -0700
Message-ID: <NGBBIFKBGMMIFAGFCCFGOEMHHEAB.kevijeps@telusplanet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-archive-position: 962
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: kevijeps@telusplanet.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: kevijeps@telusplanet.net
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Lennie
Did you stop and restart the Moo?
As you know the Moo keeps everything in memory and only writes to disk
during checkpoints.
Until it restarts it won't read the files from disk.
I accidently deleted my DB once and didn't notice because the Moo didn't
notice :(
Ciao
KJ

-----Original Message-----
From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
Behalf Of Lennie Irvin
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 8:11 AM
To: encore@utdallas.edu
Subject: [encore] Memory Restore mystery


Heya,

For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
data. Zapp!

I have been attempting to restore this data, but I have been unsuccessful
so far.  My understanding is that I will need to replace the three versions
of the database-- MOO db, MOO old db, and MOO new db with a backed up copy
of these files.

I have restored versions of all three of these copies of the database, but
so far seen no change to the contents of the MOO.  Even though I can see
that the dates on these db files now have the same dates as the backed up
copies (so I assume I overwrote them successfully), recent changes I have
made since the loss of memory are still in the MOO.  If my memory restore
was successful, I would think that these changes would be gone.

Am I missing something in how to restore missing memory? Does the MOO need
to be shut down? Do I need some magic words or something?

Thanks for your help,

Lennie

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/


---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/2003

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/2003


From egoff@mindspring.com  Mon Nov 24 10:49:55 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:55 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <egoff@mindspring.com>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6155BC3
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:54 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EA24DB4
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:54 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 04302-01-32
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:54 -0600 (CST)
Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3414434C3
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:54 -0600 (CST)
Received: from user-2iveo7r.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.96.251] helo=master)
	by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
	id 1AOJuK-0005l9-00; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:49:52 -0500
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20031124115215.00e9b510@pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: egoff@pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:52:15 -0500
To: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu, encore@utdallas.edu
From: Edward Goff <egoff@mindspring.com>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-archive-position: 963
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: egoff@mindspring.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: egoff@mindspring.com
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

At 09:11 AM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
>Heya,
>
>For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of 
>data. Zapp!
>

Something else to keep in mind. If you do a shutdown. 

MOO.DB.NEW (yes .new) is the lastest copy of your moo NOT the moo.db file

since .new is the last complete (in theory known good) checkpoint


I always, at least once a week. *mumbles about writing a script* copy my
moo.db.new to moo.db.12-12-12 (the current date and time) That way if I DO
get a "good checkpoint" but it was corrupt or the moo panics its all saved.




From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Mon Nov 24 12:26:40 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:41 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05C05BDC
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:40 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DB24AF1
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:40 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 10807-01-66
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id E848A3497
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:37 -0600 (CST)
Received: from GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.44] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:23:44 CST
Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124122424.02707758@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:26:24 -0600
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Lennie Irvin <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031124115215.00e9b510@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-archive-position: 964
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

Kevin and Ed,

Thanks for the help.  I think I can go from here.  I hadn't thought about 
the moo restart.

I think I hear you right, Ed, that it is the MOO db new file that is the 
only one that you need to back up on a regular basis.  Right?

Lennie

At 11:52 AM 11/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>At 09:11 AM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
> >Heya,
> >
> >For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
> >data. Zapp!
> >
>
>Something else to keep in mind. If you do a shutdown.
>
>MOO.DB.NEW (yes .new) is the lastest copy of your moo NOT the moo.db file
>
>since .new is the last complete (in theory known good) checkpoint
>
>
>I always, at least once a week. *mumbles about writing a script* copy my
>moo.db.new to moo.db.12-12-12 (the current date and time) That way if I DO
>get a "good checkpoint" but it was corrupt or the moo panics its all saved.

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/


From herve@hawaii.edu  Mon Nov 24 17:09:03 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:09:03 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <herve@hawaii.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDA65BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:09:03 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66678A7CD
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:09:03 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 00353-01-84
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:09:02 -0600 (CST)
Received: from rapidash.its.hawaii.edu (rapidash.its.hawaii.edu [128.171.94.83])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0DA34DA
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:08:58 -0600 (CST)
Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.hawaii.edu by mail.hawaii.edu
 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.14 (built Oct  8 2003))
 id <0HOV00M01P93DJ@mail.hawaii.edu>; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:07:00 -1000 (HST)
Received: from uhunix2 (uhunix2.its.hawaii.edu [128.171.44.7])
 by mail.hawaii.edu
 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.14 (built Oct  8 2003))
 with ESMTPS id <0HOV00MGWPJODL@mail.hawaii.edu>; Mon,
 24 Nov 2003 13:07:00 -1000 (HST)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:07:00 -1000 (HST)
From: rv <herve@hawaii.edu>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-reply-to: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-X-Sender: herve@uhunix2
To: encore@utdallas.edu
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58a.0311241247550.8888@uhunix2>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-archive-position: 965
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: herve@hawaii.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: herve@hawaii.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore


It all depends on how the server was started.
According to the Lambda server README file (see below):

If ./restart is used, then the new DB is foo.db.new
that is, the MOO will be started from foo.db and saved into physical
memory until the next checkpoint is done. Then it will dump it into
foo.db.new
Hence, foo.db should be kept untouched and has the date at which the
server was started while foo.db.new will have the date of the last
successfull database dump.

Now, if ./moo is used then it's the same idea except that one can decide
the name of the dumped db (doesn't have to be moo.db.new)
ex:
./moo -l moo.log moo.db moo_blabla.db port &

It follows then that it's usually a bad idea to use the same name if ./moo
is used ( ./moo -l moo.log moo.db moo.db port & )

What can be done is to use crond (if *nix is used) either in
/etc/crond.hourly or /etc/crond.daily (depending how often backup need to
be made) for backup.
I use something like:

tar cfz /backups_directory/moo_`date +%a%H`.tar.gz /home/dir/

where %a is for the day of the week, and %H for the hour (I'm doing hourly
backup) - (more on man date).

So on that aspect, I reckon that one *could* use something like:
./moo -l moo.log moo.db moo_`date +%a%H`.db port &

in order to have hourly backup. But this means one better have a
reasonnable amount of quota....;) (although one could do it daily
instead) - I never tried it though / just came to mind.

Another detail is that your server will dump according to
#0.dump_interval so if something went wrong and you need to recover. It is
still possible (without using all those backup thingy) IF the dump has not
been done yet. So if #0.dump_interval is not too short, it might still be
possible to copy real fast the db as the goof has not been written to the
disk yet (as the dump has not occured). But this also implies that
everything done AFTER the last dump will be lost as well with the goof.
Aloha,
rv,

------
Included with the release is a little shell script called `restart' that
handles the server start-up in a more convenient way.  You type a command
like

	./restart FOOBAR

and the script does the following:

  -- If FOOBAR.db.new exists, then
       + Rename FOOBAR.db to FOOBAR.db.old, and start a background process
to
	 compress that file.
       + Rename FOOBAR.db.new to FOOBAR.db
  -- Start the server in the background, reading the initial DB from
FOOBAR.db
     and writing the checkpoints to FOOBAR.db.new.  The server's log of
network
     connections, checkpoints, and errors will be put into FOOBAR.log.  If
     there was already a file named FOOBAR.log, its old contents are
appended
     to FOOBAR.log.old and FOOBAR.log is removed first.

The `restart' script is really the only good way to start up the server;
it's
all I ever use for LambdaMOO itself.
-------------------

> For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
> data. Zapp!
>
> I have been attempting to restore this data, but I have been unsuccessful
> so far.  My understanding is that I will need to replace the three versions
> of the database-- MOO db, MOO old db, and MOO new db with a backed up copy
> of these files.
>
> I have restored versions of all three of these copies of the database, but
> so far seen no change to the contents of the MOO.  Even though I can see
> that the dates on these db files now have the same dates as the backed up
> copies (so I assume I overwrote them successfully), recent changes I have
> made since the loss of memory are still in the MOO.  If my memory restore
> was successful, I would think that these changes would be gone.
>
> Am I missing something in how to restore missing memory? Does the MOO need
> to be shut down? Do I need some magic words or something?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Lennie
>
> L. Lennie Irvin
> English Instructor, San Antonio College
> 1300 San Pedro Ave.
> San Antonio, TX 78212
> Lirvin@accd.edu
> http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/
>
> AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/
>
>
>

From egoff@mindspring.com  Tue Nov 25 09:37:18 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:37:19 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <egoff@mindspring.com>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD83D5BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:37:18 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9A3B031
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:37:18 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08455-01-61
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:37:15 -0600 (CST)
Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D63834CF
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:37:15 -0600 (CST)
Received: from user-2ivem6o.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.88.216] helo=master)
	by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
	id 1AOfFV-0000hJ-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:37:09 -0500
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20031125103832.00eba860@pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: egoff@pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:38:32 -0500
To: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu, encore@utdallas.edu
From: Edward Goff <egoff@mindspring.com>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124122424.02707758@accdvm.accd.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20031124115215.00e9b510@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20031124090152.00a9f568@accdvm.accd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-archive-position: 966
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: egoff@mindspring.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: egoff@mindspring.com
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

.db.new :)

.db is the Copy you last used to start the moo with. So if you stated it 2
days ago its not so bad. If like most of us you started the moo MONTHS ago
.. its bad :)

.db.new is the LAST complete checkpoint. So its, in my case, an hour or
less old. I do alot of development work so hourly checkpoints are GOOD..
Some people do it only every 24hrs..

Edward

At 12:26 PM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
>Kevin and Ed,
>
>Thanks for the help.  I think I can go from here.  I hadn't thought about 
>the moo restart.
>
>I think I hear you right, Ed, that it is the MOO db new file that is the 
>only one that you need to back up on a regular basis.  Right?
>
>Lennie
>
>At 11:52 AM 11/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 09:11 AM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
>> >Heya,
>> >
>> >For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
>> >data. Zapp!
>> >
>>
>>Something else to keep in mind. If you do a shutdown.
>>
>>MOO.DB.NEW (yes .new) is the lastest copy of your moo NOT the moo.db file
>>
>>since .new is the last complete (in theory known good) checkpoint
>>
>>
>>I always, at least once a week. *mumbles about writing a script* copy my
>>moo.db.new to moo.db.12-12-12 (the current date and time) That way if I DO
>>get a "good checkpoint" but it was corrupt or the moo panics its all saved.
>
>L. Lennie Irvin
>English Instructor, San Antonio College
>1300 San Pedro Ave.
>San Antonio, TX 78212
>Lirvin@accd.edu
>http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/
>
>AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/
>
>
>


From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Tue Nov 25 09:54:30 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:54:31 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D865BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:54:30 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C98EAF8B
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:54:30 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 09490-01-82
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:54:25 -0600 (CST)
Received: from alf.uib.no (alf.uib.no [129.177.30.3])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF9E34EE
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:54:08 -0600 (CST)
Received: from c68.113.221.149.ts46v-03.dntn.tx.charter.com ([10.0.1.3]) [68.113.221.149] 
	by alf.uib.no for encore@utdallas.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.12)
	id 1AOfVo-0003lh-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:54:00 +0100
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:53:58 -0600
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
From: Jan Rune Holmevik <jan.holmevik@uib.no>
To: enCore list <encore@utdallas.edu>
Message-ID: <BBE8D736.7966%jan.holmevik@uib.no>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031125103832.00eba860@pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-checked-clean: by exiscan on alf
X-Scanner: 052c80716b19a0e7da5e3c2a1f79fc75 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html
X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: 3.1 hits, 9.0 required
X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found;
  *  3.1 -- BODY: Contains an ASCII-formatted form
X-archive-position: 967
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: jan.holmevik@uib.no
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jan.holmevik@uib.no
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

EnCore is set up by default to dump the db every hour. Like Edward, says,
the .db.new file IS the last complete backup. Next time you start the MOO
using the restart script, that file is renamed to .db and the first time the
MOO checkpoints after restart and new .db.new file is created.

IF you do not use the restart script then you must make sure that you boot
up with the latest version of the database, otherwise you'll run into the
kind of problems that Lennie has reported.

To make sure that I always have extra backups of the latest db version, I
have set up a cron/shell scrip combo on our Lingua server.

The cron script is executed every 12 hours and runs a script named make
backup which looks like this:

/usr/local/bin/gzip -c --best /export/elsie/lingua/lingua.db.new >
/export/elsie/lingua/lingua.tmp.gz 2> /dev/null
cp /export/elsie/lingua/lingua.tmp.gz
/export/elsie/lingua/backup/lingua_`date +%a`.db.gz

With this setup I always have seven days worth of backups easily accessible.

-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16595452 Nov 21 12:01 lingua_Fri.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16644084 Nov 24 12:01 lingua_Mon.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16602216 Nov 22 12:01 lingua_Sat.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16631551 Nov 23 12:01 lingua_Sun.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16570353 Nov 20 12:01 lingua_Thu.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16655562 Nov 25 00:01 lingua_Tue.db.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16566267 Nov 19 12:01 lingua_Wed.db.gz

In addition, our whole system is on an incremental tape backup schedule, so
if both hard drives should die we have copies stored elsewhere.

Cheers,
Jan

On 11/25/03 9:38 AM, "Edward Goff" <egoff@mindspring.com> wrote:

> .db.new :)
> 
> .db is the Copy you last used to start the moo with. So if you stated it 2
> days ago its not so bad. If like most of us you started the moo MONTHS ago
> .. its bad :)
> 
> .db.new is the LAST complete checkpoint. So its, in my case, an hour or
> less old. I do alot of development work so hourly checkpoints are GOOD..
> Some people do it only every 24hrs..
> 
> Edward
> 
> At 12:26 PM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
>> Kevin and Ed,
>> 
>> Thanks for the help.  I think I can go from here.  I hadn't thought about
>> the moo restart.
>> 
>> I think I hear you right, Ed, that it is the MOO db new file that is the
>> only one that you need to back up on a regular basis.  Right?
>> 
>> Lennie
>> 
>> At 11:52 AM 11/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>> At 09:11 AM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
>>>> Heya,
>>>> 
>>>> For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
>>>> data. Zapp!
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Something else to keep in mind. If you do a shutdown.
>>> 
>>> MOO.DB.NEW (yes .new) is the lastest copy of your moo NOT the moo.db file
>>> 
>>> since .new is the last complete (in theory known good) checkpoint
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I always, at least once a week. *mumbles about writing a script* copy my
>>> moo.db.new to moo.db.12-12-12 (the current date and time) That way if I DO
>>> get a "good checkpoint" but it was corrupt or the moo panics its all saved.
>> 
>> L. Lennie Irvin
>> English Instructor, San Antonio College
>> 1300 San Pedro Ave.
>> San Antonio, TX 78212
>> Lirvin@accd.edu
>> http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/
>> 
>> AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 


__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Tue Nov 25 15:19:13 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:19:13 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148345BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:19:13 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35D5B1B6
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:19:12 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 04320-01-2
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:19:06 -0600 (CST)
Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id A0B9634DC
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:19:01 -0600 (CST)
Received: from GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu [10.11.36.44] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:16:03 CST
Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20031125150702.0208b700@accdvm.accd.edu>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:18:43 -0600
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Lennie Irvin <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-Reply-To: <BBE8D736.7966%jan.holmevik@uib.no>
References: <3.0.6.32.20031125103832.00eba860@pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-archive-position: 968
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

We run EnCore with winMOO on a Windows box, so we couldn't take advantage 
of the Unix backup scripts that are available.  We had to program our own 
script for restarting the moo if the box ever went down.

Here is the code:
E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\WINMOO -o E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.DB 
E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.NEW 7777
COPY E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.DB E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.OLD
COPY E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.NEW E:\ENGLISH\ALAMOO\ALAMOO.DB

I can't say I follow it all exactly, but so far this script seems to have 
worked well.

Jan, it sounds like you suspect that my loss of moo uptime occurred because 
the moo was restarted using one of the other versions of the database than 
the .new version (moo.db or moo.old).  Given the script that I have, I'm 
not sure how this could have happened.

I'm curious to know how others have restored data in a similar situation I 
am in.  Once you know you have lost data, what do you replace and how do 
you do it.  Do you shut down the moo server?  Replace only the moo.new db 
and then restart? Do you only backup the moo.new db file or do you get he 
whole MOO folder?

I'm also curious to know if anyone has developed a script for a WindowsMOO 
similar to the UNIX cron/shell script that Jan has on Lingua for making a 
continuous 7 day backup of the moo.

Lennie

At 09:53 AM 11/25/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>EnCore is set up by default to dump the db every hour. Like Edward, says,
>the .db.new file IS the last complete backup. Next time you start the MOO
>using the restart script, that file is renamed to .db and the first time the
>MOO checkpoints after restart and new .db.new file is created.
>
>IF you do not use the restart script then you must make sure that you boot
>up with the latest version of the database, otherwise you'll run into the
>kind of problems that Lennie has reported.
>
>To make sure that I always have extra backups of the latest db version, I
>have set up a cron/shell scrip combo on our Lingua server.
>
>The cron script is executed every 12 hours and runs a script named make
>backup which looks like this:
>
>/usr/local/bin/gzip -c --best /export/elsie/lingua/lingua.db.new >
>/export/elsie/lingua/lingua.tmp.gz 2> /dev/null
>cp /export/elsie/lingua/lingua.tmp.gz
>/export/elsie/lingua/backup/lingua_`date +%a`.db.gz
>
>With this setup I always have seven days worth of backups easily accessible.
>
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16595452 Nov 21 12:01 lingua_Fri.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16644084 Nov 24 12:01 lingua_Mon.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16602216 Nov 22 12:01 lingua_Sat.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16631551 Nov 23 12:01 lingua_Sun.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16570353 Nov 20 12:01 lingua_Thu.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16655562 Nov 25 00:01 lingua_Tue.db.gz
>-rw-r--r--   1 janruneh 16566267 Nov 19 12:01 lingua_Wed.db.gz
>
>In addition, our whole system is on an incremental tape backup schedule, so
>if both hard drives should die we have copies stored elsewhere.
>
>Cheers,
>Jan
>
>On 11/25/03 9:38 AM, "Edward Goff" <egoff@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > .db.new :)
> >
> > .db is the Copy you last used to start the moo with. So if you stated it 2
> > days ago its not so bad. If like most of us you started the moo MONTHS ago
> > .. its bad :)
> >
> > .db.new is the LAST complete checkpoint. So its, in my case, an hour or
> > less old. I do alot of development work so hourly checkpoints are GOOD..
> > Some people do it only every 24hrs..
> >
> > Edward
> >
> > At 12:26 PM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
> >> Kevin and Ed,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the help.  I think I can go from here.  I hadn't thought about
> >> the moo restart.
> >>
> >> I think I hear you right, Ed, that it is the MOO db new file that is the
> >> only one that you need to back up on a regular basis.  Right?
> >>
> >> Lennie
> >>
> >> At 11:52 AM 11/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> At 09:11 AM 11/24/2003 -0600, Lennie Irvin wrote:
> >>>> Heya,
> >>>>
> >>>> For unknown reasons, AlaMOO earlier this month lost about three weeks of
> >>>> data. Zapp!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Something else to keep in mind. If you do a shutdown.
> >>>
> >>> MOO.DB.NEW (yes .new) is the lastest copy of your moo NOT the moo.db file
> >>>
> >>> since .new is the last complete (in theory known good) checkpoint
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I always, at least once a week. *mumbles about writing a script* copy my
> >>> moo.db.new to moo.db.12-12-12 (the current date and time) That way if 
> I DO
> >>> get a "good checkpoint" but it was corrupt or the moo panics its all 
> saved.
> >>
> >> L. Lennie Irvin
> >> English Instructor, San Antonio College
> >> 1300 San Pedro Ave.
> >> San Antonio, TX 78212
> >> Lirvin@accd.edu
> >> http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/
> >>
> >> AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
>University of Bergen
>Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
>Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
>N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/


From fox@vader.aacc.edu  Tue Nov 25 15:52:40 2003
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:55:21 %z (CST)
Return-Path: <fox@vader.aacc.edu>
X-Original-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu
Received: from iq1.utdallas.edu (iq1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.7])
	by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CC35BAA
	for <encore@nobel.utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:52:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mf1 (mf1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.8])
	by iq1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A923349E9
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:52:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mx2.utdallas.edu ([192.168.1.6])
 by mf1 (mf1 [192.168.1.8]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 06095-01-37
 for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:52:36 -0600 (CST)
Received: from vader.aacc.edu (vader.aacc.edu [12.167.138.28])
	by mx2.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389B034DA
	for <encore@utdallas.edu>; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:52:34 -0600 (CST)
Received: from vader.aacc.edu (IDENT:L4LThoi/pv+/7TgnELFY0Dzo1ratWvSK@localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by vader.aacc.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAPLqFpu003548;
	Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:52:20 -0500
Received: from localhost (fox@localhost)
	by vader.aacc.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id hAPLqFRk003544;
	Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:52:15 -0500
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:52:15 -0500 (EST)
From: PauAmma <fox@vader.aacc.edu>
To: Lennie Irvin <lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu>
Cc: encore@utdallas.edu
Subject: [encore] Re: Memory Restore mystery
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031125150702.0208b700@accdvm.accd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311251639150.3435-100000@vader.aacc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-archive-position: 969
X-Approved-By: cynthiah@utdallas.edu
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu
X-original-sender: fox@vader.aacc.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: fox@vader.aacc.edu
List-help: <mailto:ecartis@utdallas.edu?Subject=help>
List-unsubscribe: <mailto:encore-request@nobel.utdallas.edu?Subject=unsubscribe>
List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
List-Id: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-List-ID: <encore.nobel.utdallas.edu>
X-list: encore

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003, Lennie Irvin wrote:

> I'm also curious to know if anyone has developed a script for a WindowsMOO 
> similar to the UNIX cron/shell script that Jan has on Lingua for making a 
> continuous 7 day backup of the moo.

Not exactly what you're asking, but googling for "windows cron" gave this
as the 2nd hit: http://www.kalab.com/freeware/cron/cron.htm. Also, using
cygwin tools (http: www.cygwin.com/ if memory serves me right), you could
do fancy *nix-ish stuff on your windows host.

Either or both may help you roll your own.

Disclaimer: I don't run production windows machines, so I obviously
haven't done any significant testing of any of the software I pointed you
to, and I have no experience with it in a production setup. Your data.  
Your machines. Your users. Your boss. Your pager. Your choice. All yours,
none of it mine. :-)

-- 
Remember: i before e, except on Unix machines.