From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Tue Dec 3 13:30:05 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:30:05 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EBB5BB4 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:30:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id A5FF238A994 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:29:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from *unknown [10.11.14.204] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:29:56 CST X-Warning: ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU: Could not confirm that host [10.11.14.204] is GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:22:40 -0600 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] The case of the missing quotation marks... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 684 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Hey, I was wondering if someone might have an explanation and perhaps workaround for dealing with the seemingly atypical loss of formatting that happens when text is copied into the MOO. I realize that MOO text is ascii text pretty much, and I'm not worried about indentions being switched to the left margin or the loss of bold or italic text. What I am confused about (and concerned about) is the way quotation marks don't seem to get displayed all the time. I can't seem to understand why in some cases quotation marks are preserved when text is copied into a room description (for example) and in some cases they disappear. It would be nice if I knew what to tell my students so that they don't lose their quotation marks as they post . Also, I wonder why tabs and spaces on the left margin get lost. I would love to be able to indent text inside the MOO, if possible. Part of my solution has been to show students how to post their text as in HTML within a webroom or webnote, but many of my students get a paniced looked when I mention the words "HTML source code." Thanks, Lennie L. Lennie Irvin English Instructor, San Antonio College 1300 San Pedro Ave. San Antonio, TX 78212 Lirvin@accd.edu http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm From grhager@zubi.com Wed Dec 4 10:26:05 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:26:05 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E55E5BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:26:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from bizweb.net (rrcs-midsouth-24-199-155-66.biz.rr.com [24.199.155.66]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B487938B095 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:26:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (192.168.1.10) by bizweb.net with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:26:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: grhager@zubi.com@mail.bizweb.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:27:56 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: George Hager Subject: [encore] Re: The case of the missing quotation marks... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-archive-position: 685 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: grhager@zubi.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: grhager@zubi.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore >...What I am confused about (and concerned about) is the way >quotation marks don't seem to get displayed all the time. I can't >seem to understand why in some cases quotation marks are preserved >when text is copied into a room description (for example) and in >some cases they disappear. This may be a result of the quotes having been automatically converted to begin quotes and end quotes by a word processor. Since these "curly quotes" aren't standard characters, they get ignored by the MOO. This feature can be a pain in the butt for anyone trying to preserve ASCII text in a pure form, or trying to move text between platforms. From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Dec 4 10:50:46 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:50:46 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399E15BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:50:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 7824938B0D2 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:50:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from *unknown [10.11.14.204] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:50:39 CST X-Warning: ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU: Could not confirm that host [10.11.14.204] is GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204103359.02a09920@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:43:23 -0600 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Re: The case of the missing quotation marks... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 686 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore That's it George! "Smart Quotes" aren't so smart for MOO. I tested some text (writing one quote with the automatic smart quotes enabled and one quote with it unabled) and only the "straight" quote version showed within a MOO Note. In MSWord you can disable the "smart quotes" by going to TOOLS >> AUTOCORRECT and then unchecking the option to replace straight quotes with smart quotes in both the AutoFormat As You Type and the AutoFormat tabs. I haven't tried yet how to take a document that has smart quotes and shift it back to straight quotes. Thanks George for solving the mystery, Lennie At 12:27 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, George Hager wrote: >>...What I am confused about (and concerned about) is the way quotation >>marks don't seem to get displayed all the time. I can't seem to >>understand why in some cases quotation marks are preserved when text is >>copied into a room description (for example) and in some cases they disappear. > >This may be a result of the quotes having been automatically converted to >begin quotes and end quotes by a word processor. Since these "curly >quotes" aren't standard characters, they get ignored by the MOO. This >feature can be a pain in the butt for anyone trying to preserve ASCII text >in a pure form, or trying to move text between platforms. L. Lennie Irvin English Instructor, San Antonio College 1300 San Pedro Ave. San Antonio, TX 78212 Lirvin@accd.edu http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm From rbowman@bridgewater.edu Wed Dec 4 10:53:07 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:53:08 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE17E5BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:53:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from Isis.bridgewater.edu (Isis.bridgewater.edu [147.138.10.100]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9524E38B0DA for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:52:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from physics3.bridgewater.edu (Physics3.bridgewater.edu [147.138.100.144]) by Isis.bridgewater.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB4GqlqJ027230 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:52:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20021204114746.01af7e68@mail.bridgewater.edu> X-Sender: rbowman@mail.bridgewater.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:52:42 -0500 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: "Richard L. Bowman" Subject: [encore] Re: The case of the missing quotation marks... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20021203125437.00aa6860@accdvm.accd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 687 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: rbowman@Bridgewater.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: rbowman@Bridgewater.EDU List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore George Hager is correct in pointing out that the "smart quotation marks" are not true ASCII characters. Since lots of web page stuff (javascript, etc.) wants only true ASCII characters, I adjust MS Word to keep the regular quotes and not use the "smart quotes." In Word 2000 go to Tools/AutoCorrect/Auto Format As You Type and make certain that the box by "Straight quotes with "smart quotes" is not checked (that is, cleared). Richard Bowman Dept. of Physics Bridgewater College, VA, USA From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Wed Dec 4 12:13:38 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:13:38 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B85E5BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:13:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (accdvm.accd.edu [209.184.119.1]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id B80F938B140 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:13:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from *unknown [10.11.14.204] by ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:13:31 CST X-Warning: ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU: Could not confirm that host [10.11.14.204] is GH208-LIRVIN.accdvm.accd.edu Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204115305.00aad840@accdvm.accd.edu> X-Sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:06:15 -0600 To: encore@utdallas.edu From: Lennie Irvin Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 688 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... . Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK at the note and view it in the GUI window. However, when you all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO. Obviously, something is happening during the graphical representation of the text. Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue? Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this), Lennie L. Lennie Irvin English Instructor, San Antonio College 1300 San Pedro Ave. San Antonio, TX 78212 Lirvin@accd.edu http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm From herve@hawaii.edu Wed Dec 4 12:22:54 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:22:54 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63225BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:22:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from rapidash.its.hawaii.edu (rapidash.its.hawaii.edu [128.171.94.83]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BB638B145 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:22:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.hawaii.edu by mail.hawaii.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) id <0H6L00201X149D@mail.hawaii.edu>; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:22:52 -1000 (HST) Received: from herve.phys.hawaii.edu (herve.phys.hawaii.edu [128.171.11.114]) by mail.hawaii.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTPS id <0H6L008D3XP44F@mail.hawaii.edu>; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:22:16 -1000 (HST) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:29:29 -1000 (HST) From: rv Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go? In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204115305.00aad840@accdvm.accd.edu> X-X-Sender: herve@herve.phys.hawaii.edu To: Lennie Irvin Cc: encore@utdallas.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 689 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: herve@hawaii.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: herve@hawaii.edu List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Try to replace your indentions (TAB like) before pasting your text, with:     :guesses wildely... > The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and > Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the > left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long > quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... . > > Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in > lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as > well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK > at the note and view it in the GUI window. However, when you > all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO. Obviously, > something is happening during the graphical representation of the text. > > Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions > in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue? > > Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this), > > Lennie > > L. Lennie Irvin > English Instructor, San Antonio College > 1300 San Pedro Ave. > San Antonio, TX 78212 > Lirvin@accd.edu > http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm > > AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm > > > From jlester@structureinteractive.com Wed Dec 4 12:22:54 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:22:54 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FF55BDD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:22:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.structureinteractive.com (unknown [206.67.165.200]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CF338B15C for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:22:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from ariadne (gw-dmz.structureinteractive.com [10.1.0.1]) by mail.structureinteractive.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 297053B5A2; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:25:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Jon Lester" To: Cc: Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go? Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:26:05 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c29bc2$9c2730d0$8000000a@ariadne> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204115305.00aad840@accdvm.accd.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-archive-position: 690 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jlester@structureinteractive.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jlester@structureinteractive.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore It sounds like an HTML problem. To preserve whitespace, the text would have to be wrapped in PRE tags (less-than pre greater-than). Since multiple whitespaces aren't significant in HTML, they are usually ignored unless told otherwise (using pre tags). Jon Lester structure:interactive 616.364.7423 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction, What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam Phillips -----Original Message----- From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On Behalf Of Lennie Irvin Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:06 PM To: encore@utdallas.edu Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go? The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... . Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK at the note and view it in the GUI window. However, when you all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO. Obviously, something is happening during the graphical representation of the text. Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue? Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this), Lennie L. Lennie Irvin English Instructor, San Antonio College 1300 San Pedro Ave. San Antonio, TX 78212 Lirvin@accd.edu http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm From rbowman@bridgewater.edu Wed Dec 4 13:17:15 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:17:16 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F0B5BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:17:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from Isis.bridgewater.edu (Isis.bridgewater.edu [147.138.10.100]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CF0388E3A for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:17:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from physics3.bridgewater.edu (Physics3.bridgewater.edu [147.138.100.144]) by Isis.bridgewater.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB4JHAqJ022804 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:17:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20021204140725.01ae0738@mail.bridgewater.edu> X-Sender: rbowman@mail.bridgewater.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:17:07 -0500 To: From: "Richard L. Bowman" Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go? In-Reply-To: <000201c29bc2$9c2730d0$8000000a@ariadne> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204115305.00aad840@accdvm.accd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 691 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: rbowman@Bridgewater.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: rbowman@Bridgewater.EDU List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore Even though the description of a room is in ASCII text, it is rendered in the right pane of enCoreXpress as HTML code. This is both a benefit and a bane. Lennie, you have found the downside--formatting of text goes to pot except for carriage returns. However, the upside is that one can include simple HTML editing tags. I often use .. to bold text and
to do a hard return without the additional line spacing that occurs with a regular return. As someone else suggested,   can be used to add a hard space. Any number of these may be used. So between
and  , you should be able to do all of the formatting you desire. Before you throw too many HTML tags into the text, ascertain if persons use your MOO in text-only mode through a telnet client. If so, keep the HTML tags to a minimum so that the text-only reader is not completely lost. Richard Bowman BC-MOO: http://www.bridgewater.edu:7000/ From jlester@structureinteractive.com Wed Dec 4 13:36:15 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list encore); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:36:15 -0600 Return-Path: Delivered-To: encore@nobel.utdallas.edu Received: from smtp1.utdallas.edu (smtp1-pmn.utdallas.edu [192.168.1.5]) by nobel.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831405BAD for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:36:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.structureinteractive.com (unknown [206.67.165.200]) by smtp1.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C4338B188 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:36:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from ariadne (gw-dmz.structureinteractive.com [10.1.0.1]) by mail.structureinteractive.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A5CF3B5AA for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:39:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Jon Lester" To: Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go? Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:39:29 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c29bcc$dd9eca00$8000000a@ariadne> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021204140725.01ae0738@mail.bridgewater.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-archive-position: 692 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu Errors-to: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu X-original-sender: jlester@structureinteractive.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jlester@structureinteractive.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-ID: X-List-ID: X-list: encore A note of caution about using
and  , it will potentially make the text close to unreadable. As an example here's an excerpt from an e.e. cummings poem (who knows if the moon's): With
and   ==================== than houses and steeples and clouds:
go sailing
away and away sailing into a keen
city which nobody's ever visited,where

always
            it's
            &nbs p;       Spring)and everyone's
in love and flowers pick themselves

from & (1925) ==================== It loses something. Using 
 tags
================

than houses and steeples and clouds:
go sailing
away and away sailing into a keen
city which nobody's ever visited,where

always
            it's
                    Spring)and everyone's
in love and flowers pick themselves

from & (1925)


================

You would still be able to use bold tags and italics inside the 
 tags,
but the text formatting would remain intact. Your web readers will see the
text formatted appropriately and your command-line readers will not be
distracted by large blocks of  .


Jon Lester
structure:interactive
616.364.7423
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction,
What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
Phillips

-----Original Message-----
From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
Behalf Of Richard L. Bowman
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:17 PM
To: encore@utdallas.edu
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?


Even though the description of a room is in ASCII text, it is rendered in
the right pane of enCoreXpress as HTML code. This is both a benefit and a
bane. Lennie, you have found the downside--formatting of text goes to pot
except for carriage returns.

However, the upside is that one can include simple HTML editing tags. I
often use .. to bold text and 
 to do a hard return without the
additional line spacing that occurs with a regular return. As someone else
suggested,   can be used to add a hard space. Any number of these may
be used. So between 
 and  , you should be able to do all of the
formatting you desire.

Before you throw too many HTML tags into the text, ascertain if persons use
your MOO in text-only mode through a telnet client. If so, keep the HTML
tags to a minimum so that the text-only reader is not completely lost.

Richard Bowman
BC-MOO:  http://www.bridgewater.edu:7000/




From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Wed Dec  4 14:33:25 2002
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To: 
From: Lennie Irvin 
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
In-Reply-To: <000201c29bc2$9c2730d0$8000000a@ariadne>
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Thanks Jon!

The 
 tag works wonderfully.  Although most all my users are web-users, 
I like the idea of using the lest obstrusive 
 tag rather than the 
  option.

Thanks.  Two mysteries solved in one day! Wow!

Lennie

At 01:26 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, Jon Lester wrote:
>It sounds like an HTML problem. To preserve whitespace, the text would have
>to be wrapped in PRE tags (less-than pre greater-than). Since multiple
>whitespaces aren't significant in HTML, they are usually ignored unless told
>otherwise (using pre tags).
>
>Jon Lester
>structure:interactive
>616.364.7423
>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
>... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction,
>What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
>Phillips
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
>Behalf Of Lennie Irvin
>Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:06 PM
>To: encore@utdallas.edu
>Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go?
>
>
>The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and
>Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the
>left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long
>quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... .
>
>Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in
>lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as
>well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK
>at the note  and view it in the GUI window.  However, when you 
>all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO.  Obviously,
>something is happening during the graphical representation of the text.
>
>Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions
>in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue?
>
>Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this),
>
>Lennie
>
>L. Lennie Irvin
>English Instructor, San Antonio College
>1300 San Pedro Ave.
>San Antonio, TX 78212
>Lirvin@accd.edu
>http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm
>
>AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm


From bill@donutage.org  Wed Dec  4 15:36:21 2002
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Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
From: William Cole 
To: Encore listserv 
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Following up on this discussion, you can potentially get even greater
formatting control by attaching CSS instructions to the tags. In one MOO
project of mine, I've used the Generic Web Page object with a link to an
external stylesheet to replicate typographical features of texts I wanted to
present. That worked because the Generic Web Page has a full HTML header. In
other objects, however, you would probably have to embed the instructions in
the tag itself (with the style="..." attribute), which gets you back the
unreadable text-only rendering problem.

Would there be an easy way to allow *all* objects to use a stylesheet for
their HTML rendering? Maybe a stylesheet property defined high up in the
object hierarchy (I'm afraid I'm a little sketchy on those objects).... Just
wondering.

--Bill


On 12/4/02 3:26 PM, "Lennie Irvin"  wrote:

> Thanks Jon!
> 
> The 
 tag works wonderfully.  Although most all my users are web-users,
> I like the idea of using the lest obstrusive 
 tag rather than the
>   option.
> 
> Thanks.  Two mysteries solved in one day! Wow!
> 
> Lennie
> 
> At 01:26 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, Jon Lester wrote:
>> It sounds like an HTML problem. To preserve whitespace, the text would have
>> to be wrapped in PRE tags (less-than pre greater-than). Since multiple
>> whitespaces aren't significant in HTML, they are usually ignored unless told
>> otherwise (using pre tags).
>> 
>> Jon Lester
>> structure:interactive
>> 616.364.7423
>> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
>> ... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction,
>> What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
>> Phillips
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
>> Behalf Of Lennie Irvin
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:06 PM
>> To: encore@utdallas.edu
>> Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go?
>> 
>> 
>> The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and
>> Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the
>> left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long
>> quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... .
>> 
>> Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in
>> lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as
>> well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK
>> at the note  and view it in the GUI window.  However, when you 
>> all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO.  Obviously,
>> something is happening during the graphical representation of the text.
>> 
>> Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions
>> in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue?
>> 
>> Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this),
>> 
>> Lennie
>> 

-- 
William Cole (aka Urizen), Wizard
CowTown MOO
College of Humanities
The Ohio State University

mailto:bill@donutage.org
http://moo.cohums.ohio-state.edu:7000/



From herve@hawaii.edu  Wed Dec  4 15:55:39 2002
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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:54:54 -1000 (HST)
From: rv 
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
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Wingy wrote a really nice washer for HTML issues as the one discussed.
I believe it can be found at LogMOO.
rv, 

> Following up on this discussion, you can potentially get even greater
> formatting control by attaching CSS instructions to the tags. In one MOO
> project of mine, I've used the Generic Web Page object with a link to an
> external stylesheet to replicate typographical features of texts I wanted to
> present. That worked because the Generic Web Page has a full HTML header. In
> other objects, however, you would probably have to embed the instructions in
> the tag itself (with the style="..." attribute), which gets you back the
> unreadable text-only rendering problem.
> 
> Would there be an easy way to allow *all* objects to use a stylesheet for
> their HTML rendering? Maybe a stylesheet property defined high up in the
> object hierarchy (I'm afraid I'm a little sketchy on those objects).... Just
> wondering.
> 
> --Bill
> 
> 
> On 12/4/02 3:26 PM, "Lennie Irvin"  wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Jon!
> > 
> > The 
 tag works wonderfully.  Although most all my users are web-users,
> > I like the idea of using the lest obstrusive 
 tag rather than the
> >   option.
> > 
> > Thanks.  Two mysteries solved in one day! Wow!
> > 
> > Lennie
> > 
> > At 01:26 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, Jon Lester wrote:
> >> It sounds like an HTML problem. To preserve whitespace, the text would have
> >> to be wrapped in PRE tags (less-than pre greater-than). Since multiple
> >> whitespaces aren't significant in HTML, they are usually ignored unless told
> >> otherwise (using pre tags).
> >> 
> >> Jon Lester
> >> structure:interactive
> >> 616.364.7423
> >> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> >> ... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction,
> >> What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
> >> Phillips
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
> >> Behalf Of Lennie Irvin
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:06 PM
> >> To: encore@utdallas.edu
> >> Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and
> >> Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the
> >> left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long
> >> quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room... .
> >> 
> >> Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in
> >> lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as
> >> well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you LOOK
> >> at the note  and view it in the GUI window.  However, when you 
> >> all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO.  Obviously,
> >> something is happening during the graphical representation of the text.
> >> 
> >> Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin indentions
> >> in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue?
> >> 
> >> Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this),
> >> 
> >> Lennie
> >> 
> 
> 


From jlester@structureinteractive.com  Wed Dec  4 15:58:44 2002
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From: "Jon Lester" 
To: "'Encore listserv'" 
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:01:56 -0500
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Check out #125:make_head (enCore Web Utilities), this generates an html
header... you should be able to fiddle with this or figure out where it's
being called and supply your own style sheet this way. It will be possible,
of course, for someone to override those styles by simply calling another
style sheet afterward or defining in-line styles (using the style="..."
mentioned by Bill) but it's a good starting point.

There may be easier ways too. I'm still looking.

Jon Lester
structure:interactive
616.364.7423
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of conviction,
What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
Phillips

-----Original Message-----
From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
Behalf Of William Cole
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:36 PM
To: Encore listserv
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?


Following up on this discussion, you can potentially get even greater
formatting control by attaching CSS instructions to the tags. In one MOO
project of mine, I've used the Generic Web Page object with a link to an
external stylesheet to replicate typographical features of texts I wanted to
present. That worked because the Generic Web Page has a full HTML header. In
other objects, however, you would probably have to embed the instructions in
the tag itself (with the style="..." attribute), which gets you back the
unreadable text-only rendering problem.

Would there be an easy way to allow *all* objects to use a stylesheet for
their HTML rendering? Maybe a stylesheet property defined high up in the
object hierarchy (I'm afraid I'm a little sketchy on those objects).... Just
wondering.

--Bill


On 12/4/02 3:26 PM, "Lennie Irvin"  wrote:

> Thanks Jon!
>
> The 
 tag works wonderfully.  Although most all my users are
web-users,
> I like the idea of using the lest obstrusive 
 tag rather than the
>   option.
>
> Thanks.  Two mysteries solved in one day! Wow!
>
> Lennie
>
> At 01:26 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, Jon Lester wrote:
>> It sounds like an HTML problem. To preserve whitespace, the text would
have
>> to be wrapped in PRE tags (less-than pre greater-than). Since multiple
>> whitespaces aren't significant in HTML, they are usually ignored unless
told
>> otherwise (using pre tags).
>>
>> Jon Lester
>> structure:interactive
>> 616.364.7423
>> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
>> ... always an interesting question to ask someone in a state of
conviction,
>> What kind of person would you be if you no longer believed that? - Adam
>> Phillips
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: encore-bounce@utdallas.edu [mailto:encore-bounce@utdallas.edu]On
>> Behalf Of Lennie Irvin
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:06 PM
>> To: encore@utdallas.edu
>> Subject: [encore] Where does the left margin spacing go?
>>
>>
>> The mystery of the missing quotation marks is solved (thanks George and
>> Richard), but I am still curious why spaces can't be preserved from the
>> left margin for things like paragraph indentions, indentions for long
>> quotations, or for having an e.e. cummings poem as a Note in your room...
.
>>
>> Thinking that perhaps Word might be the culprit again, I tried pasting in
>> lines with indents and spaces from a Word file saved in a Text format as
>> well as from Notepad, and every time the indentions are lost when you
LOOK
>> at the note  and view it in the GUI window.  However, when you 
>> all the spacing is preserved in the text side of the MOO.  Obviously,
>> something is happening during the graphical representation of the text.
>>
>> Is there anything that can be done to preserve these left margin
indentions
>> in the GUI window? Is this a JAVA issue?
>>
>> Thanks for you all's help (and sorry to be pestering about this),
>>
>> Lennie
>>

--
William Cole (aka Urizen), Wizard
CowTown MOO
College of Humanities
The Ohio State University

mailto:bill@donutage.org
http://moo.cohums.ohio-state.edu:7000/





From Kit@BlackIrish.net  Wed Dec  4 17:55:44 2002
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:55:22 -0500
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Kit 
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 4, 2002                                   I'm leading the gay life!
04 mis Kevardhu 2002                     T=E1 m=E9 ag imeacht le haer an tsa=
oil!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was playing with things like this, I discovered that the verb 
used to display text to people logged in via telnet is not the same 
verb that's used for people using the interface.

You could always edit the verb to substitute HTML tags with normal 
text.  In my case, HTML makes using accented characters in foreign 
languages a lot easier, but many of the MUD programs don't support 
such things and it's a paid to read things like á when 
telnetting.

Also, don't many objects have a web text field as well as an ascii 
text field?  Use the fancy tags in the web field and use simple ascii 
for the ascii text.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kit               http://www.BlackIrish.net/Kit/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A wrthodo gyngor rhad a bry^n           He who refuses inexpensive
edifeirwch drud.                        advice buys a costly repentance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nova/no va misconception: http://www.snopes2.com/business/misxlate/nova.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
December  4 -- Dark Moon                      December 11 -- First Quarter
December 19 -- Full Moon                      December 26 -- Last Quarter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jlester@structureinteractive.com  Wed Dec  4 20:48:51 2002
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To: "'Encore listserv'" 
Subject: [encore] MOO Programmers Manual
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:51:55 +0000
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Greetings!
 A few years ago, while working on another MOO, I converted the MOO prog
manual into an indexed PDF. It makes for a little quicker referencing when
necessary. For those who would like it, you can download it here:
http://walden3.mhpcc.edu/library/index.htm

 Click on the PDF icon to download it (or load it into your browser if you're
set up that way) and/or save it. Feel free to distribute and use as you
like.

Jon Lester

From lirvin@accdvm.accd.edu  Thu Dec  5 08:59:23 2002
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:51:58 -0600
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Lennie Irvin 
Subject: [encore] Re: Where does the left margin spacing go?
In-Reply-To: 
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Heya,

I like what I've been hearing about the possibilities of putting a CSS or=20
some other standard HTML formatting into the generics for displaying=20
text.  I'm afraid I might need some help in actually doing it, so if anyone=
=20
comes up with a method that works, I would sure appreciate some explicit=20
instructions.

Kit mentioned an interesting thing that I thought I would follow up=20
on.  Kit wrote: "Also, don't many objects have a web text field as well as=
=20
an ascii text field?  Use the fancy tags in the web field and use simple=20
ascii for the ascii text."

I think what he may be referring to is objects like the Generic Note that=20
has a Description (ascii text field) and a Note Text.  Both seem to go to=20
the same place as far as displaying in the graphical interface, but only=20
the Note Text will display when you do the command .  At least=20
there is the precedent for two different text fields that do different=20
things.  Could an object have two display fields--a webtext display field=20
and an ascii display field?  I was just wondering...  So we might be able=20
to copy the text into both text fields and the text would display without a=
=20
hitch in both the graphical interface side of the MOO and the text side of=
=20
the moo.

I also wanted to follow up with the 
 tag idea we arrived at=20
yesterday.  Whenever you use it, you will probably also want to set the=20
width in the attributes for the tag because any text without a carriage=20
return will go endlessly to the right of the window.  width=3D"..."  I'm not=
=20
sure what the best line length is because I haven't tested it yet, but I=20
assume about 40 would do.

Lennie

At 06:55 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, Kit wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>December 4, 2002                                   I'm leading the gay=
 life!
>04 mis Kevardhu 2002                     T=E1 m=E9 ag imeacht le haer an=
 tsaoil!
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>
>When I was playing with things like this, I discovered that the verb used=
=20
>to display text to people logged in via telnet is not the same verb that's=
=20
>used for people using the interface.
>
>You could always edit the verb to substitute HTML tags with normal=20
>text.  In my case, HTML makes using accented characters in foreign=20
>languages a lot easier, but many of the MUD programs don't support such=20
>things and it's a paid to read things like á when telnetting.
>
>Also, don't many objects have a web text field as well as an ascii text=20
>field?  Use the fancy tags in the web field and use simple ascii for the=20
>ascii text.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>Kit               http://www.BlackIrish.net/Kit/
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>A wrthodo gyngor rhad a bry^n           He who refuses inexpensive
>edifeirwch drud.                        advice buys a costly repentance.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>Nova/no va misconception: http://www.snopes2.com/business/misxlate/nova.htm
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>December  4 -- Dark Moon                      December 11 -- First Quarter
>December 19 -- Full Moon                      December 26 -- Last Quarter
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-

L. Lennie Irvin
English Instructor, San Antonio College
1300 San Pedro Ave.
San Antonio, TX 78212
Lirvin@accd.edu
http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/lirvin.htm

AlaMOO: http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/index.htm


From aborgia@videotron.ca  Thu Dec  5 23:38:49 2002
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 encore@utdallas.edu; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:38:44 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:38:54 -0500
From: Alexandre Borgia 
Subject: [encore] CSS, PRE & Width ...
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Greetings!

On December 5, 2002 09:51 am, Lennie Irvin wrote:
> I like what I've been hearing about the possibilities of putting a CSS or
> some other standard HTML formatting into the generics for displaying
> text.

	In fact, you can already customize most Stylesheet attributes on any web 
object (and these includes about all types of things, players, rooms, ...).  
Take a look at the $encore_web_class properties,
	"@d $encore_web_class."

	Most of these properties ("web_text_color", "web_font", 
fixed_width_font_fize", etc) are used when the MOO creates Stylesheets on the 
fly.  You can even specify an external stylesheet, by combining:
	"external_stylesheet" = , and
	"use_external_stylesheet" = 1


> and an ascii display field?  I was just wondering...  So we might be able
> to copy the text into both text fields and the text would display without a
> hitch in both the graphical interface side of the MOO and the text side of
> the moo.

	Maintaining multiple copies of documents always mean trouble;)  I think the 
most elegant way to do such a thing is to write a formatting utility, for 
example:

$encore_web_utils:format_web_text   this none this   rdx
 -----
	text = args[1];
	pre = tostr("
");
	end = "
";
	if (typeof(text) == LIST)
		text = {pre, @text, end};
	else
 		text = pre + text + end;
	endif
	return text;
 -----

	This simple code wraps text around "PRE" tags and uses the default font 
family & size (so it is not shown in small, fixed-width fonts).

	For instance, I added the following line to $encore_web_object:_html (near 
line 41, where it deals with "description"):
		description = $encore_web_utils:format_web_text(description);

	Now almost every object description (player, rooms, things, etc.) display 
correctly.  For notes, simply add:
	text = $encore_web_utils:format_web_text(text);
	... to $note:_html (near line 8).

	The thing is then to "hunt" for other special cases where you want good text 
formating on the web.

	Now, I only dealt with "_html" verbs, that are, obviously, meant for 
web-display.  But if you want to know whether or not to format the text in an 
arbitrary context, you can check if the player is connected via the web, by 
doing something like:
	if (player.ts_client)
		text = $encore_web_utils:format_web_text(text);
	endif


> return will go endlessly to the right of the window.  width="..."  I'm not
> sure what the best line length is because I haven't tested it yet, but I
> assume about 40 would do.

	The Width attribute in PRE is actually deprecated since a while.  I don't 
know which browsers currently support it, but it could mean that in a near 
future this functionality will disapear.  There is actually no official 
replacement according to the Web Consortium ... the best approach I found is 
to use a combination of 2 things:
	

	Which are Netscape 4+ and IE5.5 way of forcing word-wrap in a PRE component.  
It is actually simpler this way, since you do not have to make assumption 
about actual count of characters-by-line.

	- Alexandre Borgia

From jhaefner@iwu.edu  Fri Dec  6 11:36:01 2002
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To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Joel Haefner 
Subject: [encore] kudos
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Kudos to Alexandre, who is an awesome MOOgrammer. I learn something new 
every time AB emails the list.

Joel H. 


From rtk@stargate.net  Fri Dec  6 17:01:19 2002
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To: 
Subject: [encore] MOOs and firewalls...
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:02:15 -0500
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Hi there,

I emailed some time back about lag occurring in our MOO at IUP, and received
a number of solutions.  Thank you much.

We checked over everything, and in the course of our work, discovered that
the lag primarily occurs when our bits of information reach other campuses,
which explains why we had tremendous lag while trying to work with classes
from other schools.

Right now, I guess where we're at is that people who want to use our MOO at
these schools need to give our IP address to their tech people, and hope
that the path can be cleared to allow regular access.  Does anyone know of
any other solutions to this?  I'm guessing not, but thought I'd ask.

Best wishes to all, and hope the semesters are wrapping up nicely!

Rob


From tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu  Fri Dec  6 17:23:05 2002
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From: day michael 
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Subject: [encore] Re: MOOs and firewalls...
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Hi Rob,

A few months ago our school started "packet filtering" on ports
7777 and 8888, which they claimed were often used by illicit 
filesharing operations.  To open back up access to my MOO at
port 8888, I had to get them to exclude the IP address of that
machine from their firewall rule.  Then I had to get them to
give me access to 8888 and 7777 from the campus unix server, on
which I run tinyfugue, so that I could get out to other MOOs.

I hope this helps,

Michael Day

From dilger@nwe.ufl.edu  Sat Dec  7 08:47:09 2002
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From: Bradley Dilger 
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> Right now, I guess where we're at is that people who want to use our
> MOO at these schools need to give our IP address to their tech
> people, and hope that the path can be cleared to allow regular
> access.  Does anyone know of any other solutions to this?  I'm
> guessing not, but thought I'd ask.

That's about the only solution. One thing in your favor: point out
that this is traffic from and to a *known* host, not opening a port to
the world so h4x0rs can do whatever they please. You might also
remind them that you follow proper security procedures, monitor your
MOO for abuses, eat your vegetables, etc.

(using "You" to mean "you and the teachers at XYZ school")

cbd.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bradley Dilger                       http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~dilger/


From Mark.A.ONeil@Dartmouth.EDU  Mon Dec  9 11:24:21 2002
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Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:26:32 -0500
Subject: [encore] Changing object ownership
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in the effort to save time - does anyone have a script handy for 
changing the ownership of objects (all) owned by one user to another?

recently had a builder move on and would like to reassign their objects 
to a new builder.

thanks,
-m


From jung@uib.no  Mon Dec  9 13:36:14 2002
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:36:06 +0100
To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Daniel Jung 
Subject: [encore] Re: Changing object ownership
In-Reply-To: <5C406276-0B9B-11D7-8106-000393A380A4@Dartmouth.EDU>
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At 18:26 09.12.2002 Monday, you wrote:
>in the effort to save time - does anyone have a script handy for changing 
>the ownership of objects (all) owned by one user to another?
>
>recently had a builder move on and would like to reassign their objects to 
>a new builder.




Assuming #777 for the old owner and #888 for the new owner:

   eval for ting in (#777.owned_objects) me:tell("@chown ", ting, " to 
#888"); endfor

This will print out a list like this:

   @chown #6437 to #888
   @chown #543 to #888
   @chown #4535 to #888
   @chown #5554 to #888
   @chown #1237 to #888

and so on. Now you can copy and paste the whole list into the command line, 
it will be processed line by line.




Beware, if you attempt to

   eval for ting in (#777.owned_objects) ting.owner = #888; endfor

to circumvent the cut-and-paste, the c property will not be set properly! - 
meaning (amoungst others) that the new builder won't be able to dig from 
and to his newly acquired rooms. You should always @chown. It is safer as 
well, as you can read the list to be batched before exectuing it.




To keep track of your changes, you could create a prop

   @prop #1.last_chown_time {}

and write the batch list like this

   eval for ting in (#777.owned_objects) me:tell("@chown ", ting, " to 
#888"); me:tell("@set ", ting, ".last_chown_time to ", {time(), #888, 
"because the old one moved on"})

giving you a list with the time of chowning, the former owner, and an 
explanation as well as the @chown itself for every object.





Good luck.
- Daniel


From aborgia@videotron.ca  Mon Dec  9 14:04:28 2002
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:04:33 -0500
From: Alexandre Borgia 
Subject: [encore] Re: Changing object ownership
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Hi Mark,

	The @transfer command can evaluate expressions from which it builds a list of 
objects, so you should be able to change ownership of all objects owned by a 
player by doing so:

	@transfer #1111.owned_objects to 

	Where #1111 is the "source" player (you _must_ use an object number here).

	@transfer is actually a special syntax of @grant, which changes object 
ownership, + all impled verbs and properties ownership.

	Hope this help!
		- Alexandre Borgia

On December 9, 2002 12:26 pm, Mark O'Neil wrote:
> in the effort to save time - does anyone have a script handy for
> changing the ownership of objects (all) owned by one user to another?
>
> recently had a builder move on and would like to reassign their objects
> to a new builder.
>
> thanks,
> -m

From jung@uib.no  Mon Dec  9 16:16:23 2002
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To: encore@utdallas.edu
From: Daniel Jung 
Subject: [encore] Re: Changing object ownership CORRECTION
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A small correction:

At 18:26 09.12.2002 Monday, I wrote:
   [...]
   eval for ting in (#777.owned_objects) me:tell("@chown ", ting, " to #888");
   me:tell("@set ", ting, ".last_chown_time to ", {time(), #888, "because the
----------------------------------------------------------^^^^

must be #777 of course. But the @transfer suggested by Alexandre would be 
smarter anyway (except for additional batched properties).

- Daniel


From Mark.A.ONeil@Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Dec 10 08:59:02 2002
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I have added notes on this topic to the MOO-FAQ'O'Matic

http://cobweb.dartmouth.edu/~moneil/MOO-FAQ.html

-m


From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Wed Dec 11 16:54:19 2002
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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:54:03 -0600
Subject: [encore] enCore version 3.3 Released
From: Jan Rune Holmevik 
To: enCore list 
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We are pleased to announce the release of enCore version 3.3. This is a
maintenance release that addresses certain security issues, as well as
general bug fixes and enhancements. It is strongly recommended that all
enCore MOO administrators update their installations to version 3.3 as soon
as possible. See change log for details about this version.

The full distribution as well as the 3.3 update can be downloaded from the
enCore home page at http://lingua.utdallas.edu/encore/

We would like to thank Alexandre Borgia who found and fixed the main
security hole addressed in this patch. Also, we want to encourage everyone
to follow his example and contribute code to the enCore project. The more
people who get involved in the development, the more often we'll be able to
update and improve the system. Even though I am currently working hard on m=
y
PhD I will be able to turn out new releases quickly if there are
contributions from the user community.

Change log enCore version 3.3

- Fixed a serious security hole in $xpress_program_editor:coerce whereby
conventinal player characters could be turned into wizard characters.
Alexandre Borgia explains: "What I did is rewrite the "coerce" verb so it n=
o
longer depends on eval to typecast to complex types as LISTs or FLOATs."
Thanks to Alexandre for identifying and fixing this problem.

- Fixed some layout issues with $slide_projector:show and rev. Thanks to
Herv=E9 Collin and others.

- Fixed a problem with $encore_web_object:make_contextual_menu so that back
button now works in Netscape. Thanks to Matt Beerman.

- Fixed a problem with $xpress_object_editor:menu_html that caused
javascript errors in certain browsers. Thanks to Richard Bowman.

- Fixed a problem with $webprojector:start. Thanks to Ken Schweller for
providing the fix.

- Added a try clause to $encore_web_utils:can_handle to prevent the verb
from breaking in case of datatype errors.

- Fixed a layout issue with $xpress_object_editor:Edit_Web_Slides

- Added a copyright property to make it easier to update dates in future
releases.
   =20

Enjoy,
Cynthia and Jan   =20

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:20:14 -0500
To: rbroglio@earthlink.net, encore@utdallas.edu
From: Edward Goff 
Subject: [encore] Re: log in problems
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A guess, would be the 4.6
since flash was re-written to use IE 5.x and the new kernal that Netscape
started with the NEW flash with the OLD browser doesn't work. 

Suggestion. Get mozilla, or ie 6 and see if the problem goes away.



At 10:24 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, Ron Broglio wrote:
>Can anyone help this colleague of mine.  I'm stumped.
>Thanks.
>Ron
>------
>
>From: "Timothy Richardson" 
>
>MOOtcan works fine.  The problems are certainly most likely browser 
>related.
>
>In Netscape 4.6, everything works fine EXCEPT no Flash stuff will show 
>up (just an empty box with a "click here for plugin" message, though I 
>already have the plugins and clicking there does nothing anyway).
>
>In IE, all I get is the Starting enCore message and a blank left frame. 
>  If I press the Look button, the right clears up, but still no left.  
>So no place to type, etc.
>
>I s'pose I should tell you that this is pc, not mac, too.
>
>I've checked that everything's  installed and enabled, and am now out 
>of guesses.
>
>
>


From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Thu Dec 12 09:48:12 2002
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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:48:04 -0600
Subject: [encore] Fandom of the Opera again
From: Jan Rune Holmevik 
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A few weeks ago Daniel asked about the status of Xpress and Opera. While I
don't know what the situation is on the PC side, the Oslo-based company just
released the final version 6.0 for Mac OS X. The good news is that the
browser will load Xpress without any problems. The not-so-good news, though,
is that Java and Javascript support seem to be lacking and that overall the
software comes across as a beta product unfortunately. (I experienced
several hangs during my brief test). Some testing this morning showed that
any character that I typed in the chat window was displayed twice. Also,
when new Xpress windows are created they are not being sent to the
foreground. Instead they remain hidden behind the main client window.

Cheers,
Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From m5051236@u-aizu.ac.jp  Sat Dec 14 09:37:35 2002
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Subject: [encore] wizard password
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Hello,
I installed enCore3.3 on my Linux box. Then I connected using telnet. After
doing "connect wizard" enCore asks me a password. In installation.html "no
password is necessary" is written.
I have an experience of installing enCore3.2 and no password was required
there. So what is the problem with enCore3.3? What is an initial password?
Thanks a lot in advance.

Roman.


From aborgia@videotron.ca  Sat Dec 14 13:00:14 2002
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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:00:33 -0500
From: Alexandre Borgia 
Subject: [encore] Re: wizard password
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Roman,

	The wizard (#2) do have a password set in enCore 3.3 distribution ... I can't 
say why or what is it, but to change it follow these steps:

	moo -e   

	Using the "e" option starts the MOO in Emergency mode.  It is a 
troubleshooting mode providing a basic terminal interface to execute commands 
as a wizard.

	In this mode, type:
	;#2.password = crypt("foo");

	This will set the new Archwizard password to 'foo' (or anything else you 
want:)

	Use "quit" to exit this mode and dump the database.  You can then restart the 
server normally.

	- Alex

On December 14, 2002 10:37 am, R. S. wrote:
> Hello,
> I installed enCore3.3 on my Linux box. Then I connected using telnet. After
> doing "connect wizard" enCore asks me a password. In installation.html "no
> password is necessary" is written.
> I have an experience of installing enCore3.2 and no password was required
> there. So what is the problem with enCore3.3? What is an initial password?
> Thanks a lot in advance.
>
> Roman.


From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Sat Dec 14 18:32:14 2002
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Subject: [encore] Re: wizard password
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It may be that I accidentally left a wiz password in the 3.3 distro. Will
check on this first thing tomorrow and if necessary issue a new release.

Jan

On 12/14/02 1:00 PM, "Alexandre Borgia"  wrote:

> Roman,
> 
> The wizard (#2) do have a password set in enCore 3.3 distribution ... I can't
> say why or what is it, but to change it follow these steps:
> 
> moo -e   
> 
> Using the "e" option starts the MOO in Emergency mode.  It is a
> troubleshooting mode providing a basic terminal interface to execute commands
> as a wizard.
> 
> In this mode, type:
> ;#2.password = crypt("foo");
> 
> This will set the new Archwizard password to 'foo' (or anything else you
> want:)
> 
> Use "quit" to exit this mode and dump the database.  You can then restart the
> server normally.
> 
> - Alex
> 
> On December 14, 2002 10:37 am, R. S. wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I installed enCore3.3 on my Linux box. Then I connected using telnet. After
>> doing "connect wizard" enCore asks me a password. In installation.html "no
>> password is necessary" is written.
>> I have an experience of installing enCore3.2 and no password was required
>> there. So what is the problem with enCore3.3? What is an initial password?
>> Thanks a lot in advance.
>> 
>> Roman.
> 
> 
> 


__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Mon Dec 16 10:20:27 2002
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Subject: [encore] EnCore 3.3 Re-released
From: Jan Rune Holmevik 
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I have re-released enCore 3.3 today. By a mistake I had left a password for
wiz #2 in the previous release. If you have downloaded the the previous 3.3
distro please replace it with the new one at
ftp://ftp.utdallas.edu/pub/ah/moo/enCore-latest.tar.gz

Cheers,
Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Tue Dec 17 22:58:43 2002
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Subject: [encore] enCore 3.3.1 Released!
From: Jan Rune Holmevik 
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enCore version 3.3.1 is a maintenance release that addresses a serious
security hole in all enCore 3 installations, see change log for details. The
3.3.1 is a mandatory update for all 3-based enCore MOOs. Thanks to Wes
Cooper for reporting the security hole, and to Alexandre Borgia for valuable
input on it's solution.

Change log enCore version 3.3.1

- Plugged a serious security hole in
$xpress_program_editor:save_property_value that allowed random users to
change property values which they should not have permission to touch. Many
thanks to Wes Cooper for reporting this issue and to Alexandre Borgia for
input on the fix.

- Made property $encore_web_class.shared_owners inherited.

Cheers,
Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



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Norwegian national radio sent a short feature on MOO today. The first part
is me talking about MOO in Norwegian and the second part is Cynthia talking
briefly about the pedagogy of MOO. For those who are interested the web site
for the Radio program can be found at:

http://www.nrk.no/programmer/radio/verdt_a_vite/2377051.html

The interview itself is in Windows Media format and can be heard here:

http://www.nrk.no/dynasx?p_lenke_id=318995&p_artikkel_id=2377051&mswmext=.as
x

Cheers,
Cynthia and Jan

__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



From jan.holmevik@uib.no  Fri Dec 20 13:03:55 2002
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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:03:17 -0600
Subject: [encore] Re: New-Prog-Log issue
From: Jan Rune Holmevik 
To: enCore list 
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3123234201_1687478
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This has been a long standing issue and I just haven't had time to do
anything about it. The $new_prog_log uses a special format which is
different from other mailing lists and that's why you're getting a trace
back on it. I have attached a modified version of the verb
$xpress_MOO_Mailer:contents_html which tells the user to use command line
verbs to read messages in this folder. If anyone would like to write an
Xpress verb that handles output from the $new_prog_log I'll be glad to
include it in the next update.

Cheers,
Jan

On 12/20/02 9:23 AM, "Rory Vieira"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I just discovered something that was going wroing in the past.
> 
> After login in into XPress, and opening my mailbox, I have the link to the
> New-Prog-Log mailing list.
> 
> When I click it I get the following message:
> Failed request was: GET /Xpress_MOO_mailer/contents.html?29 HTTP/1.1
> Details: The verb did not return a flat list of strings:
> 
> followed by a lot of rubbish...
> 
> Any ideas on what this might cause?
> Could it be something to do with creating players in telnet and not in
> XPress?
> 
> TIA,
> Rory
> 
> 
> 


__Jan Rune Holmevik, Cand Philol_________________________________________
University of Bergen                                          jan@mac.com
Department of Humanistic Informatics                  jan.holmevik@uib.no
Sydnesplass 7, HF-bygget                            janruneh@utdallas.edu
N-5007 Bergen, NORWAY                      http://lingua.utdallas.edu/jan



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